new preview DMG2

[Umbran]

The primary goal of a wargame is to fight, thus a wargame.
The primary goal of a roleplaying game is to roleplay, thus a roleplaying game.
The primary goal of a storytelling game is to create/tell stories.

Do not confuse the means with the end.

My primary goal may be roleplaying. I may use oodles of storytelling elements to set up my roleplaying scene. I may also acknowledge that including some storytelling aspects are an aid and support to playing the role - that role-playing in a good story is better than ignoring story while I play the role.

Or, I may use a fight scene as the frame for playing the role - as making tactical decisions is still decision making, and thus roleplay. Either way, I need those other elements to get my roleplay done in an interesting way.

Thus, the "primary goal" does not really tell us what the game contains in practice.

I think you are just a short hop from GNS theory, honestly.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The primary goal of a wargame is to fight, thus a wargame.
The primary goal of a roleplaying game is to roleplay, thus a roleplaying game.
The primary goal of a storytelling game is to create/tell stories.

The problem I have with what you are saying is that you say primary but then don't point out that there are secondaries of each in the others...

Wargaming is mostly the fighting...but people enjoy the rp and story too, just to a lesser extent
Role-playing is mostly about assuming a role, but people enjoy fighting and stories to a lesser extent
Story telling is mostly to create a story, but people like to in those games assume roles and have fights as well (Ok maybe the ifhgt in this one is really low...like less then 1%...but you get the point...

D&D is billed as the premiere roleplaying game. If that is no longer going to be true, and the brand is changing into a storytelling game then the developers/marketers should just man up and say so.

no one is saying it isn't going to be a role-laying game (except you)...they are saying that an RPG can have infuences of storytelling games (Heck they were birthed from wargames)...

Infact I think RPGs are at there best when they have a good wargame and a good storytelling game feel mixed in. How much of a mix is diffrent per group.


In my tuesday night games I would say we are 40% rp and 40% storytelling and 20% war gameing on avrage...but when we are doing the orcus adventure path (H1-E3) there is a lot of dungon crawl in it...we play more like 50% wargame 40% RPG 10% storytelling

on my saterday night game we are more like 80% wargame 15% storytellign and 5% rp...heck we very rarely talk 'in character'...how ever that same group (Yes every plyaer adn the DM) play LFR once a month...and we are always in character for that...

The developers/Marketers are trying to show people ways to expand there games...that is not a bad thing...D&D is the premiere roleplaying game...it has it's roots in wargaming, and story games...so it is a healthy mix

 

[ExploderWizard]

So the general concensus is that anything can be called an RPG.

If a tabletop combat game were produced that included a few pages about giving a name and some traits to your leader figure and was released as an RPG that it would be fine because there is nothing preventing it from being used as an RPG?

Thats a bit broad to be of any use IMHO.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Do not confuse the means with the end.

you know umbran...I just took half an hour to craft a post that I thought perfectly summerized the issue here...then you ninja'ed me with half the word count and put it better...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So the general concensus is that anything can be called an RPG.

If a tabletop combat game were produced that included a few pages about giving a name and some traits to your leader figure and was released as an RPG that it would be fine because there is nothing preventing it from being used as an RPG?

Thats a bit broad to be of any use IMHO.

no thsat would be a wargame with some rp infuences...

why must everything be an extreme with you???

what do you call a game with board game, storytelling game, rpg, and wargaming parts that is PRIMARALY about assumeing roles and playing out that one role???

 

[ExploderWizard]

no one is saying it isn't going to be a role-laying game

You make good points but lets keep this grandma friendly.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Do not confuse the means with the end.

My primary goal may be roleplaying. I may use oodles of storytelling elements to set up my roleplaying scene. I may also acknowledge that including some storytelling aspects are an aid and support to playing the role - that role-playing in a good story is better than ignoring story while I play the role.

Or, I may use a fight scene as the frame for playing the role - as making tactical decisions is still decision making, and thus roleplay. Either way, I need those other elements to get my roleplay done in an interesting way.

Thus, the "primary goal" does not really tell us what the game contains in practice.

I think you are just a short hop from GNS theory, honestly.

Never heard much about GNS. My point isn't that anything produced as a roleplaying game can't have much combat or any plot elements lest it cease to be an RPG. If the design objectives of the game are to provide a means to craft stories as a group that doesn't mean that the game can't have combat or players are forbidden to roleplay but the bulk of the material is going to be about story elements then its largely a story game.

I have fun roleplaying my Skaven Grey seer during WHF battle games but I don't consider WHFB to be an RPG.

 

[Barastrondo]

So the general concensus is that anything can be called an RPG.

Far from it. The general consensus is that "roleplaying game" is a fairly inclusive term, not that it is a totally inclusive term.

 

[Fifth Element]

So the general concensus is that anything can be called an RPG.

No, and that doesn't follow from anyone's argument here that I have seen.

The argument is that your definition of RPG excludes many games that the majority of gamers would consider to be RPGs. Therefore your definition is of little use when used among gamers.

 

[Rechan]

Is there a reason we're still arguing this?

If EW hasn't conceded anything by page 5, he isn't going to concede it by page 6 or 7 or 10. And no amount of posters piling on his definition is going to change that.

I was hoping for an actual DISCUSSION of the CONTENTS of DMG2's excerpt, but instead we get this.