New/Revised Prestige Classes

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

I see; yes. The system as a whole does call for a lot more brain work that the standard fighter. I sometimes forget all the option in a metamartial environment and you have a point: if metamartial is an option like disarming, why wouldn't you try to do some crazy stuff like break legs, hit more than one target, etc. With metamartial, damage stops being the net output of a fighter's turn... I may have to concede the point, but I have to think about it more.

Thats all I can ask. Its difficult for people to envision the effect metamartial combat can play before they have had a chance to test it (and only a few people even have the beta Ascension at the moment - I am sure after the release people will see theres a lot more to it. I'm still going over things as I am not totally comfortable with some of the BAB penalties for some of the maneouvres.

I may also put some new metamartial maneouvres on the website or add some more to ascension if I can find the space.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Axolotl mate!

Unless your also going to tell spellcasters what spells they know and have prepare these aren't really valid arguments.

The difference is that its really difficult to botch spell selection for wizards, whereas the Fighter needs to be min/maxed just to stay on an even keel.

But thats the entire point of the fighter, it has no focus and has adaptable flavour. Instead of giving a class designed to be generic and adaptable verastility you've given them a specific chain of feats that I personally would never take.

Chances are your Fighter would have been dramatically underpowered then.

Ironically enough I have recently been going over the HD data with some alarming results. It appears the Fighter needs approximately 25 feats per 20 levels to stay balanced with the Wizard and Cleric.

I will be changing my Revised Fighter to take advantage of this.

I have been wracking my brains trying to think of a way to use the last 5 feats and I simply am drawing a blank. Which means on top of all the other stuff (and some new stuff) the fighter will probably need one bonus feat every 4 levels.

I was hoping to totally do away with bonus feats but I don't see any other generic modifiers that really fit the class.

So? That the player of the charicters choice what their charicter is. Chosing it for them makes the game less fun.

I don't think I am taking away choice, simply that I am redirecting it.

What defensive styles are there other than biggest armour + magic items?

Well there is:

- Medium/Heavy Armour
- No Armour/Light Armour
- Shield

So you chose a way that screws over non-casters? Who already have enough problems at epic.

I don't think making them more powerful amounts to screwing them over.

Well then why not with feats? This way make it more tactical in the same way as halving the number of spells a wizard can cast, or making rogues spend three rounds doing nothing to sneak attack would.

I have made things more tactical with Metamartial Maneouvres.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

I just posted this over at the wizards forums...

Based on the feedback and some new playtesting on my part I have revised my revised Epic Fighter.

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/sermon6a.htm

Changes include:

- New Skills
- New Skill Points
- d12 Hit Dice
- Changes to how Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation work (allowing you to choose different weapons)
- Weapon Deflect: +1 AC bonus per 4 levels (starting at 4th)
- Bonus Feat: +1 bonus feat per 4 levels (starting at 3rd)

- I also included a 40th-level sample Fighter

Now the first thing you might notice is that it looks a great deal more powerful than the current fighter. However, some recent discoveries (by me) suggest that a Fighter needs the equivalent of 25 (or so) feats over 20 levels to match the Wizard and Cleric classes.

While I was trying to eliminate Bonus Feats altogether, I couldn't come up with any generic fighting aspect for the last five feats (up to 20th-level). So in the end I had no choice but to give them 1 bonus feat per four levels.

Any comments on the revisions?

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Well, it does seem much more potent. For what it is worth, I think levels 9 & 17 could use some thing; Dead levels were the reason people 1, 2, or 4-dipped in fighter. Perhaps granting leadership for free at 9th, and something really, really strong at 17th. (when casters start getting 9th level spells like Timestop, Wail of the Banshee, and other Encounter-enders)

It looks better that the first too; Fewer dead levels, and it rolls the loss of the 7 some feats into general bonuses to attack and damage, as well as defensive bonuses. It seems comparable to Paladin in strength.

 

[WarDragon]

And yet... it is still inferior to the PHB Fighter. Having to risk not hitting to get more attacks, and losing the versatility in builds is not a good thing. Unless Fighters get metamartial stuff for free, and everyone else has to spend a feat per maneuver, I'd still use the standard one any day of the week.

EDIT: You know what? I give up. I'm sorry, Krusty, but if it's not obvious that getting to pick 11 potentially good feats (as I demonstrated above) is preferable to having 14 crappy ones forced on you, I guess no amount of argument is going to change your mind.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Ltheb mate!

Well, it does seem much more potent. For what it is worth, I think levels 9 & 17 could use some thing; Dead levels were the reason people 1, 2, or 4-dipped in fighter.

I was thinking I could move Weapon Focus to 1st level, then every 4 thereafter, which would cut out every dead level.

Perhaps granting leadership for free at 9th, and something really, really strong at 17th. (when casters start getting 9th level spells like Timestop, Wail of the Banshee, and other Encounter-enders)

I think what you have to remember is that its still the 'vanilla' Fighter. I want it to be comparable in terms of power, but I don't want to give it abilities that necessarily dictate what type of Fighter you want to play. So it boosts the generic stuff, but doesn't get into specific abilities to any degree.

It looks better that the first too; Fewer dead levels, and it rolls the loss of the 7 some feats into general bonuses to attack and damage, as well as defensive bonuses.

Actually you lose 6 (of 11) bonus feats and gain 19 feats in return.

It seems comparable to Paladin in strength.

I'll be tweaking the Paladin a tad in the weeks to come.

Although its the Barbarian to come next, I think its pretty good.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy WarDragon matey!

You do seem to have a 'bee in your bonnet' about this issue, though for the life of me I can't think why.

And yet... it is still inferior to the PHB Fighter. Having to risk not hitting to get more attacks, and losing the versatility in builds is not a good thing. Unless Fighters get metamartial stuff for free, and everyone else has to spend a feat per maneuver, I'd still use the standard one any day of the week.

Thats your prerogative, my revised Fighter is only optional.

EDIT: You know what? I give up. I'm sorry, Krusty, but if it's not obvious that getting to pick 11 potentially good feats (as I demonstrated above) is preferable to having 14 crappy ones forced on you, I guess no amount of argument is going to change your mind.

Actually you get 19 'crappy ones' and 5 bonus feats in place of 11 'potentially good' feats...but in your rush to pour on the scorn you may have overlooked that.

There's no such thing as a "Superior" fighter. But, assuming human...

Feats: Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Improved Bull Rush, Combat Focus, Combat Vigor, Combat Defense, Combat Strike, Endurance, Steadfast Determination, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Improved Trip

This fighter has also traded out his 16th level bonus feat for the Overpowering Strike variant in PHB2. The first time he hits someone in battle, he gets fast healing 4, his dodge bonus goes up to +2 and he can change its target as an immediate action. He only gets one attack on his turn and his enemies get a net +8 to hit and +4 damage against him, but anyone who does hit him sucks up two attacks of opportunity that both deal double damage. Should he charge, he deals 2.5x his Power Attack penalty in damage, and that penalty applies to his AC instead of attack, so it's gonna hit. Using the most broken weapon in the PHB. Oh, and his Will save is based on Con instead of Wis, and he doesn't fail Fort saves on a natural 1. I came up with this in five minutes, tops, not counting double checking my math and making sure I didn't miss any prereqs. I'm sure I could have done better, if I had took more time and didn't avoid Weapon Focus to make a point (there are some decent things with it as a prerequisite, outside of Core).

Since I don't own PHB II I am at a slight disadvantage.

However my revised (human) Fighter gets 12 feats @ 20th, while yours gets 18.

Improved Trip and Improved Bull Rush can be handled with Metamartial Maneouvres so you don't need those feats.

You get Exotic Weapon proficiency (in fact you would be specialised in exotic weapons of the same type) at 20th, so again thats another feat you don't need.

I'm guessing most of the others are probably prereqs for certain feats...otherwise why would you take Endurance.

However, even at this juncture my revised Fighter is only three feats down on your Fighter: but mine also gets +5 to hit, +5 to AC, +10 to damage, Improved Crit, Improved Crit Multiplier and is skilled in all simple, martial and exotic weapons of the same type (which you can actually split between weapon types).

 

[Fieari]

I was wondering why people were having problems with this fighter, until I realized I've shown up late, and you've revised it again. It looks good to me, and I agree with your fundamental premise that feat picking for fighters takes way too much time. This'll also help with the problem of "recalculating bonuses" that tags along with all that feat picking. It definitely looks more powerful than usual, but I see that as a good thing. The melee oriented character in my playtest is notoriously bad at min/maxing, and his barbarian was hitting less often and doing less damage than another player's "gish". Anything that reduces the strain of min/maxing is good in my books.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Fieari mate!

I was wondering why people were having problems with this fighter, until I realized I've shown up late, and you've revised it again.

Well, what happened was that a few weeks ago I got into a discussion about the CR of the Infernal at dicefreaks, and through that debate I came to question some elements of my CR factors (the benefits of which you'll eventually see in v6). So I spent a number of days going over the data, during which time I posted the revised Fighter stats. However, after I had finished pouring over the numbers I realised a few discrepancies and what needed done to rebalance things - including my revision of the revision.

It looks good to me,

I'll be giving it some minor tweaks so that there are no dead levels, when I update the Revised Barbarian later tonight.

and I agree with your fundamental premise that feat picking for fighters takes way too much time.

Its not a big deal for PCs but I think its a massive deal for DMs especially at epic levels.

This'll also help with the problem of "recalculating bonuses" that tags along with all that feat picking. It definitely looks more powerful than usual, but I see that as a good thing.

Well there is a slight mathmatical drop due to the new iterative attack rules I used, but pound-for-pound its still technically more powerful at every level (as I showed in the other thread).

The melee oriented character in my playtest is notoriously bad at min/maxing, and his barbarian was hitting less often and doing less damage than another player's "gish". Anything that reduces the strain of min/maxing is good in my books.

Just wait until you see the revised Barbarian tonight.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Ok, just took a look at the revised barbarian... I must say, while it was a bit weaker starting off (but less front loaded) the class itself is awesome! The summon ancestor ability is cool (but it needs clarifying as to just what stats and equipment the ancestors have) though I recommend there be a minor penalty for an ancestor dieing. (Morale penalty until the end of the fight?)
Also, their damage reduction actually becomes useful! Also, I am pretty certain that the HP this barbarian will have will be insane.