New/Revised Prestige Classes

Howdy Xzoltar dude! :)

Xzoltar said:
Usally I love the stuff you make, but this time for the Fighter, I dont like it. Sure its fun it it harder and more often, but it lack diversity, every Fighter are the same now except maybe their starting weapon. I will try to playtest it in my next games for a couple of thugs that I will throw at my party, so we'll see. I will let them use Meta-martial maneuver like in Immortal Handbook, so that they dont just do the same thing again and again...

Less option is not fun at all and it seem to go against what you usally design...

I have been thinking about diversity, but although it seems all Fighters will be the same you still have your attack and defense modes to determine, AND then you have Metamartial Maneouvers on top of that. So I fail to see how the Fighter is not as diverse as the current Fighter.

Attack Styles:

Archer - Missile Weapon (Point Blank Shot)
Champion - Two-handed Weapon (Power Attack)
Fencer - Single Weapon (Combat Expertise)
Cavalryman - Mounted Combat
Pugilist - Unarmed Combat (Improved Unarmed Strike)
Soldier - Single Weapon + Shield
Swashbuckler - Two-Weapon Fighting

Defensive Styles:

Armoured (Medium or Heavy Armour) - Armour Mastery
Unarmoured (Light or No Armour) - Dodge/Evasion

Once you take away things like Improved Critical, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization there are virtually no other 'generic' fighter options. Everything else is dependant upon the attack and defensive styles you choose.
 

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Hey WarDragon matey! :)

WarDragon said:
No! Bad designer, bad! Customization is the only reason people ever took Fighter levels, and, speaking from a munchkin PoV, the Weapon Focus chain sucks out loud.

Which is why you get the equivalent of 14 feats over the first 20 levels instead of just 11.

WarDragon said:
A far cry from buffing the class, you've ensured nobody will ever take it.

Feel free to show me how you can make a superior fighter class using the 11 bonus feats? :)

WarDragon said:
By the way, Eclectic Strike? Worthless. Yeah, your feats will apply, but the random crap you pick up is still nonmagical, and therefore, just that: crap.

Eclectic Strike is more of a flavour feat than anything else, used only for cinematic moments. However, Total Weapon Mastery is very powerful, so those two probably even out.

WarDragon said:
The "random" feats aren't a drawback, they're the class's lifeblood. Give the new stuff too, but keep the feat every level.

What I have done is take the random feats and exchange them for the most likely and obvious choices (namely: Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specilaization, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization) and doubled them.

At 20th-level, instead of being +2 to hit, +4 to damage and doubling critical threat range...you'll be +5 to hit, +10 to damage, double critical threat range and increase critical mulitplier.

WarDragon said:
And what the hell do you have against iterative attacks?! They're the only advantage non-casters have!

Given that they apply to everyone, how are they an advantage?

You still get multiple attacks, only now you have to make a tactical decision how many attacks you will make.

It also IS quicker to use, AND quicker to design for.

WarDragon said:
Seriously, Krusty, it seems like you're catering to the mentally challenged gamer, here. Anyone who can't pick a few more feats, or remember to -5 with every attack after the first is going to be lost in high to Epic level anyway, so don't worry about them, and just make the class worth playing.

I'm trying to make a Class thats...

A) Speeds up Character Creation (both PC & NPC).
B) More interesting.
C) Better balanced.
 

Hi Ltheb mate! :)

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
Well, I can't say I didn't like the class; I would consider playing one over a regular fighter, just to give it a whirl. Though I really found this class lacking in coolness. (a bit more so than with the PH fighter)

See this is where you are losing me...how is the PHB Fighter cool and this isn't?

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
I do think the game itself could use a bit more simplicity; feat packages work pretty well to do that at high levels. But some classes are ONLY playable if they have complex combinations of options available. Example: Wizard - If I said All Wizard have is an attack spell that does 4 damage/level, and a defensive spell that adds +1 deflection bonus/2 levels, wizard would look really dry too. Who would play them? Not me. Now barbarian is one of those classes that is really simple and class design and play strategy: Step 1 - Get angry. Step 2 - Kill. Step 3 - If survivors remain, return to Step 2.

That said, I wouldn't put your fighter version as better or worse than a PH fighter and would allow a player to use either one, but I myself would lean to the basic fighter because of the options available. Don't need a weapon specialist? No problem! I'll make a Trip/Disarm/Expertise Fiend.

Which would be irrelevant in my system because you can already make a disarm, trip, stun, kill or whatever attack using Metamartial Maneouvres!
 

dante58701

Banned
Banned
Although I nearly always like your ideas, I'll have to pass on the new fighter variation. I'm a huge fan of customizable characters and I despise standardized feat packages. It seriously robs characters of the individual nuances I love so much. Mechanically speaking, sure it 'could' be more powerful, but...realistically speaking...power isn't everything.

I never thought I'd see a unanimous and resounding NO.
 
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Howdy Pssthpok dude! :)

Pssthpok said:
I think the fighter class is fine the way it is, though I think some of the abilities you put in your version would make great high-level feats.
I also think that losing iterative attacks could be very problematic, even if it does simplify things. I'd take a 20/15/10/5 over a 5/5/5/5 any day of the week, as the former makes sense and the latter is nonsense, underpowered, and sorta silly. If the metamartial move was reworded to allow for this, then I'd support removing 'staple' iteratives, such as:

Blitz Attack: You may make more than one attack per round. Each additional attack suffers a cumulative -5 attack penalty. You may make as many attacks as you'd like, provided no attack is made with an attack penalty equal to or greater than your Base Attack.
eg. So, if you have a Base Attack of +17, you could make one standard attack, one at +12 (-5), one at +7 (-10), and one at +2 (-15), but no more.

Which I understand is basically the same thing as the RAW, but it's better for the habit and survival of the players; removal of the EAB rules in conjunction with the above metamartial move abolishes the Wizard 20/Fighter 20 vs. Fighter 20/Wizard 20 dilemma... which is a good thing. Removing the ability to make more than one high-mod attack per round will only serve to drag out combat, since fighters will be making fewer attacks per round, even if they auto-confirm and use your Multiplier feats.

This seems to be the major point of contention.

Current (ELH) 40th-level Fighter: +30/+25/+20/+15

Revised 40th-level Fighter making four attacks: +25 x4

Incidently, this cross-over* happens at levels 34-35

*Where my system becomes mathmatically superior.

Regardless I disagree with your assessment (the bit I underlined). Even with the current ELH rules, epic fighters are not missing with iterative attacks. Instead what we are seeing is a trend to power attack.

I also don't see massive Armor Class inflation happening at epic levels. I think even achieving +1 AC per epic level is going to be above average. BAB (in my system) already covers that epic AC creep, then you have magic items, strength increases, skill boosts (to attack bonus I mean) and so forth.

As for my method making less sense, I again disagree. There is no reason why someone making four quick attacks should strike as competantly as someone of equal skill making a single attack.

From a technical standpoint what we are really talking about is:

+22/+17/+12/+7 (F20 with Greater Weapon Focus)

vs.

+10/+10/+10/+10 (Revised F20)

Which is only a 45% difference rather than a 250% difference.
 

Hiya mate! :)

dante58701 said:
Although I nearly always like your ideas, I'll have to pass on the new fighter variation.

Thats your prerogative. ;)

dante58701 said:
I'm a huge fan of customizable characters and I despise standardized feat packages. It seriously robs characters of the individual nuances I love so much.

The bit I fail to understand is what are these nuances you are talking about? As far as I can tell you can still do all the same stuff only moreso.

dante58701 said:
Mechanically speaking, sure it 'could' be more powerful, but...realistically speaking...power isn't everything.

I never thought I'd see a unanimous and resounding NO.

I appreciate the feedback dude! Sorry you didn't like it. :(
 

Pssthpok

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
Howdy Pssthpok dude! :)

Hey hey, UK!

Upper_Krust said:
Current (ELH) 40th-level Fighter: +30/+25/+20/+15

Revised 40th-level Fighter making four attacks: +25 x4

Incidently, this cross-over* happens at levels 34-35

Good point; not conceding the issue, however.

Upper_Krust said:
Even with the current ELH rules, epic fighters are not missing with iterative attacks. Instead what we are seeing is a trend to power attack.

A trend that tends to speed up combat; so if a fighter can hit with a margin of 10, odds are good that they'll risk the margin in exchange for more damage. This

Upper_Krust said:
There is no reason why someone making four quick attacks should strike as competantly as someone of equal skill making a single attack.

They don't. Their first attack is at standard skill; their following iterative attacks get progressively harder to land. Under your system, if they can hit with one our of four attacks, they're likely to hit with all four of them. So you have a system where instead of achieving what you aim for, you end up with fighters landing one attack or four, since there's no difference in each case from one attack to the next (x=x, or x=y=z=n). If a fighter can't hit with more than one attack, the game bogs down (this isn't a fault of your revision, but a fact of the game) because damage output drops. If, using your system, they can hit with their fourth attack, they can hit with all four; if they can't, it's as good as giving them only the RAW fighter's first attack. So it really ends up looking a lot like the RAW, but with poorer numbers and less room for power attack, expertise, and the like.

Upper_Krust said:
From a technical standpoint what we are really talking about is:

+22/+17/+12/+7 (F20 with Greater Weapon Focus)

vs.

+10/+10/+10/+10 (Revised F20

Huh? +22 - 15 would reduce to +7/+7/+7/+7 (i.e. a 60% difference). And that, friend, won't even cut the mustard at 20th-level. So, while the system becomes superior in the mid-30s, it's practically impotent before epic and only slowly creeps up on the RAW once there.
 

Upper_Krust said:
See this is where you are losing me...how is the PHB Fighter cool and this isn't?
I didn't mean any offense, but the PHB fighter, with it's array of feats, has the potential to explore any kind of combat. Want durability? Take Improved Toughness 10-17 times. +200-340 HP plus a 30+ con at 20th level means you have more HP than most Dragons. Need to be a Drizzt clone? A fighter can take the whole 2 weapon fighting tree, grab dodge-mobility-spring attack, and still have room for specializing in scimitars up to weapon supremacy (phb2, requires something like 17 fighter levels, mad crazy bonuses). Your fighter, off the cuff, only appears to be a weapon specialist. Granted, that is generally what I see every fighter ever played doing, but taking general feats that improve your combat skill overall in broad areas (expertise, Improved Toughness, Epic Fast Healing, Spring Attack) is also a relevant tactic. Not the most powerful, but a consistent one.

Also, having more that one of your fighters in the party is really bland. "Hi, what weapon did you pick?" Now, they still have can take feats to give them weird options (like improved shield bash, or spring attack) but they do not have as many options as a classic fighter, nor do they have a choice to forgo specialization in favor of a more exotic fighting style.

Also I don't see the extra attacks from higher BAB as the fighter attacking faster, but as in he finds more openings in his foes defenses and gets more chances to attack successfully.

I think the meta-martial system is pretty good, but perhaps it might be best to change BAB from +20/+15/+10/+5 to +20/+20/+20/+20. Simple, and saves brainpower from excess math. Now a fighter has a solid, undeniable reason to want to make a full-attack, and can deal a competitive* (*vs spellcasters, who at higher levels become infinitely more deadly because they can usually rest whenever they want, allowing them to Nova in most every fight that matters) amount of damage per round with Power-Attack. Plus the fighter has an attack routine similar to most monsters. Perhaps not the best idea (nullifies some epic feats and divine abilities) but simple.
 

WarDragon

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
Which is why you get the equivalent of 14 feats over the first 20 levels instead of just 11.
14 worthless feats, instead of 11 potentially good ones.


Feel free to show me how you can make a superior fighter class using the 11 bonus feats? :)
There's no such thing as a "Superior" fighter. But, assuming human...
Feats: Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Improved Bull Rush, Combat Focus, Combat Vigor, Combat Defense, Combat Strike, Endurance, Steadfast Determination, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Improved Trip

This fighter has also traded out his 16th level bonus feat for the Overpowering Strike variant in PHB2. The first time he hits someone in battle, he gets fast healing 4, his dodge bonus goes up to +2 and he can change its target as an immediate action. He only gets one attack on his turn and his enemies get a net +8 to hit and +4 damage against him, but anyone who does hit him sucks up two attacks of opportunity that both deal double damage. Should he charge, he deals 2.5x his Power Attack penalty in damage, and that penalty applies to his AC instead of attack, so it's gonna hit. Using the most broken weapon in the PHB. Oh, and his Will save is based on Con instead of Wis, and he doesn't fail Fort saves on a natural 1. I came up with this in five minutes, tops, not counting double checking my math and making sure I didn't miss any prereqs. I'm sure I could have done better, if I had took more time and didn't avoid Weapon Focus to make a point (there are some decent things with it as a prerequisite, outside of Core).

Eclectic Strike is more of a flavour feat than anything else, used only for cinematic moments. However, Total Weapon Mastery is very powerful, so those two probably even out.
No, it's really not. Any fighter at that level is going to stick to his favored weapon, no matter what.

What I have done is take the random feats and exchange them for the most likely and obvious choices (namely: Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specilaization, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization) and doubled them.

At 20th-level, instead of being +2 to hit, +4 to damage and doubling critical threat range...you'll be +5 to hit, +10 to damage, double critical threat range and increase critical mulitplier.
Yeah, except.... standard feats, can still do better, as I showed above.


Given that they apply to everyone, how are they an advantage?
Because Fighters get four chances at a natural 20, instead of two.

You still get multiple attacks, only now you have to make a tactical decision how many attacks you will make.
No, because now using more than one is suicide against anything that's not significantly weaker than you anyway.

It also IS quicker to use, AND quicker to design for.
But weaker. And makes no sense, because a more skilled character should be able to get off more solid hits than a less skilled one, without losing accuracy.


I'm trying to make a Class thats...

A) Speeds up Character Creation (both PC & NPC).
B) More interesting.
C) Better balanced.
You got one out of three. Sadly, it's the only one that doesn't matter in the final analysis of a class's worth.
 

WarDragon

First Post
Ltheb Silverfrond said:
Also, having more that one of your fighters in the party is really bland. "Hi, what weapon did you pick?" Now, they still have can take feats to give them weird options (like improved shield bash, or spring attack) but they do not have as many options as a classic fighter, nor do they have a choice to forgo specialization in favor of a more exotic fighting style.
Indeed. 3E did away with the cookie-cutter classes of days gone by, and all the better for it.

Also I don't see the extra attacks from higher BAB as the fighter attacking faster, but as in he finds more openings in his foes defenses and gets more chances to attack successfully.
Isn't that the default logic in the core books? It's how I've always seen it.

I think the meta-martial system is pretty good, but perhaps it might be best to change BAB from +20/+15/+10/+5 to +20/+20/+20/+20. Simple, and saves brainpower from excess math. Now a fighter has a solid, undeniable reason to want to make a full-attack, and can deal a competitive* (*vs spellcasters, who at higher levels become infinitely more deadly because they can usually rest whenever they want, allowing them to Nova in most every fight that matters) amount of damage per round with Power-Attack. Plus the fighter has an attack routine similar to most monsters. Perhaps not the best idea (nullifies some epic feats and divine abilities) but simple.
Perhaps this could be a figher-exclusive ability, keeping the 20/15/10/5 for other classes. Though I say again, anyone who can't deal with subtracting 5 from every attack has no business playing Epic to begin with, or any kind of D&D at all for that matter.
 

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