D&D 5E New Spellcasting Blocks for Monsters --- Why?!

[Voadam]

Most martial powers are doing something they can normally do all the time, but better. A fighter can swing a weapon for attacks all the time, whirlwind attacks are narratively indistinguishible from making multiple attacks against those surrounding you. There is a lot of room narratively to obscure the resource mechanics. Exceptions that would be more jarring would be things like a martial area of effect ranged attack power of multiple missiles where you are tracking how many throwing knives you actually have.

For D&D spells it started with a narrative based on Jack Vance wizardry where the preparation of a specific spell and the expenditure of it as a limited resource were a narrative element similar to having only three throwing knives on you. D&D spell preparation is pretty strongly associated as an actual world element and not just an abstract mechanic of doing the same thing they can always do but at various intensities.

You could go full abstract, but then you would get a jarring disconnect anytime you tried to in character strategically plan on using your powers aware of those limitations.

You could go partial and talk about how your caster won't have the energy to keep casting spider climb for the whole party without directly bringing up slots and such, but you would then have to keep that in mind if you were in-character making plans requiring strategic use of spell resources.

It could be done for spell prep, but situations of in game narrative and player mechanic choices being in conflict and disconnect are going to come up in a way that they generally won't for most martial powers.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Are we thinking too hard about the mechanics of D&D again

I remember bouncing off the mechanics of D&D decades ago and trying out other games which I though gave better immersion and verisimilitude and eventually came to the conclusion that I was chasing a rainbow. They all fall down somewhere if you look hard enough and I have enjoyed D&D a lot more when I stepped back from such concerns.
Now I realise that this is not for everyone but I much prefer a framework that is a good game than something "more realistic"

 

[UngeheuerLich]

But, since we're talking about stat-blocks and monster design, which IS combat focused, then arguing that a given class doesn't play a particular way because your group happens not to play that way because your group is out of combat focused then perhaps it's incumbent upon the poster to realize that they aren't really perhaps the best person to ask about how to design combat focused game elements.

I disagree. Heavily.
We chose to play DnD 5e, because we like how it plays out of combat (not inoeding your roleplaying) and because when it comes to combat, it is engaging and fun and has exactly as much rules as needed.
Even though 2/3 of the book are combat focussed, the fighting is strwamlined and leaves enough space to roleplay.

The newer stat blocks work toward our goal: having fun and engaging combats without beeing too much of a burden for DMs. If I want NPCs that play as player characters, I just give them Player character stats.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Most martial powers are doing something they can normally do all the time, but better. A fighter can swing a weapon for attacks all the time, whirlwind attacks are narratively indistinguishible from making multiple attacks against those surrounding you. There is a lot of room narratively to obscure the resource mechanics. Exceptions that would be more jarring would be things like a martial area of effect ranged attack power of multiple missiles where you are tracking how many throwing knives you actually have.

For D&D spells it started with a narrative based on Jack Vance wizardry where the preparation of a specific spell and the expenditure of it as a limited resource were a narrative element similar to having only three throwing knives on you. D&D spell preparation is pretty strongly associated as an actual world element and not just an abstract mechanic of doing the same thing they can always do but at various intensities.

You could go full abstract, but then you would get a jarring disconnect anytime you tried to in character strategically plan on using your powers aware of those limitations.

You could go partial and talk about how your caster won't have the energy to keep casting spider climb for the whole party without directly bringing up slots and such, but you would then have to keep that in mind if you were in-character making plans requiring strategic use of spell resources.

It could be done for spell prep, but situations of in game narrative and player mechanic choices being in conflict and disconnect are going to come up in a way that they generally won't for most martial powers.

I think there’s only a disconnect if you are choosing to not buy into the fiction.

In some ways it reminds me of metagaming discussions, in which people will (apparently) reject perfectly plausible explanations for character knowledge because they suspect the player is really just trying to gain “unfair advantage.” But the exact same action declaration from a player who couldn’t possibly have that knowledge is acceptable.

 

[Voadam]

Well, I hadn't really thought about it. But now I can't stop.

Thanks.

A fighter can always hit an opponent and insult their opponent. Hitting them hard enough to knock them down, to be fresh enough to capitalize on the moment their foe is out of position and off-balance enough to be knocked down or to force a situation to be able to be in position to knock them down is not something that can be done at will and spammed every six seconds.

Insulting can be done all the time. Getting someone going enough to give them combat penalties is tougher. Narratively the fighter is throwing out insults in both situations.

Most martial things can come down narratively to pushing hard in a moment doing things they normally could do. Action surge works great this way narratively.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Because D&D has been extremely combat-centric for decades, perhaps forever (the old "heist" style focused on more strategic-level combat rather than tactical-level combat). It has also, historically, struggled heavily with non-combat abilities and spells, either making them so weak as to be pointless (e.g. the spell augury is often nigh-useless) or so strong as to trivialize anything you use them on (Rangers are often accused of this in 5e, for example.) There are several systems out there which both place less emphasis on combat alone, and handle non-combat stuff in a more effective and productive way. Of course, familiarity is a powerful thing in TTRPGs, so just because other things might work better does not mean they would necessarily work better for your group, at least not right away.

Sad thing: I have not find a system, with a better balance of out of combat and in combat stuff.
Probably it is familarity, but we just like how the game is structured. We just don't need more out of combat rules. Maybe a bit more steuctured out of combat rules, because the DMG is sadly a bit unorganized in that regard, and improved rules are found in xanathar's guide and so on.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Most martial things can come down narratively to pushing hard in a moment doing things they normally could do. Action surge works great this way narratively.

Ok, but always exactly once between rests? Clearly there’s an entirely meta game construct at work here, which we justify with the sort of fictional framing you just offered.

I’m just saying that spell slots are (or can easily be) the same thing.

 

[James Gasik]

Oh, sure, I agree a Wizard probably casts spells using the same principles of magic used by their teacher.

I just don’t think 4/3/2 (or whatever) is one of those principles. That’s an artificial meta game construct that puts boundaries around magic for gamist reasons.

Well, while the precise limit on spells of each level that you can have slots for is arbitrary, the game's fiction does support the existence of spell slots, using the justification that, for most spellcasters, you must prepare spells in advance, like loading bullets in a gun, to use them later. Variations of this concept are seen in not only Jack Vance's Dying Earth, but also Roger Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber (Merlin specifically has to prepare spells in advance).

There is one factor with the new stat blocks for spellcasters that I do like- it's highly unlikely you should encounter spellcasters with their full repertoire of spells. If PC's are using up resources throughout the day, why are NPC's always fresh and at full power?

It certainly makes sense that even a Lich might only have a percentage of his combat spells ready to go, having used his or her other slots for magical research, spying on enemies, and whatnot. Cult leaders might be using up spells to summon minions, contact their Patrons, etc. etc.. Basically, any spellcaster worth their salt has other things to do with their spells than destroy people who might drop in to attack them- and the more powerful they are, the more rarely this will occur in the first place.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

D&D has always been frustratingly arbitrary and inconsistent on tying some things 1-1 to fiction and others not.

Some things should evolve though even if it used to be tied to character knowledge -- remember Thieves and Fighter Guilds? As in the character knew they had a class? Yeah, no thanks.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Well, while the precise limit on spells of each level that you can have slots for is arbitrary, the game's fiction does support the existence of spell slots, using the justification that, for most spellcasters, you must prepare spells in advance, like loading bullets in a gun, to use them later. Variations of this concept are seen in not only Jack Vance's Dying Earth, but also Roger Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber (Merlin specifically has to prepare spells in advance).

There is one factor with the new stat blocks for spellcasters that I do like- it's highly unlikely you should encounter spellcasters with their full repertoire of spells. If PC's are using up resources throughout the day, why are NPC's always fresh and at full power?

It certainly makes sense that even a Lich might only have a percentage of his combat spells ready to go, having used his or her other slots for magical research, spying on enemies, and whatnot. Cult leaders might be using up spells to summon minions, contact their Patrons, etc. etc.. Basically, any spellcaster worth their salt has other things to do with their spells than destroy people who might drop in to attack them- and the more powerful they are, the more rarely this will occur in the first place.

Oh, yeah, for sure: if you want the Vancian system to be true/known in-game that’s easy.

I’m just saying that the opposite is a completely logical option.