New Staff Blog: Run Away!

[El Mahdi]

I..it's clear that 4e teachs players to focus fire much better than other editions.

I agree. But that's not what the blog said. It said that 4E taught fans to use focus fire...period. And that's just not true. Other editions taught it much sooner. It's far and away, not unique to, or begun with, 4E.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Yes, it said "4E taught fans to use focus fire... period." It didn't say "4E was the first edition to..." So you don't have to read more into it than is there.

 

[Hussar]

Fair enough El Mahdi. But, there is a flipside to your point.

Perhaps, as fans, we could rein in our tendency to flip out and massively over react to every little thing that people say. And, when people do flip out, I think, as a community, we need to completely hammer those who do. Make it absolutely clear that such behavior is not constructive and will not be tolerated. You (and I'm meaning you in the general sense, not you personally) want to brew tempests in a teacup, do so at your own peril. People who blow up these sorts of things should be treated with the ridicule they deserve.

Back on Topic

Yeah, I totally agree that morale rules should be guidelines, not hard and fast coding.

 

[El Mahdi]

Fair enough El Mahdi. But, there is a flipside to your point.

Perhaps, as fans, we could rein in our tendency to flip out and massively over react to every little thing that people say. And, when people do flip out, I think, as a community, we need to completely hammer those who do. Make it absolutely clear that such behavior is not constructive and will not be tolerated. You (and I'm meaning you in the general sense, not you personally) want to brew tempests in a teacup, do so at your own peril. People who blow up these sorts of things should be treated with the ridicule they deserve.

First of all, nobody "flipped out".

Secondly, with as damaging as such language was to WotC's cause in the lead up to 4E, it's paramount to even avoid the appearance of going that direction again.

Pointing it out to WotC isn't flipping out, but a friendly warning that the line still exists, and they were coming dangrously close to it. The rest of my posts in this thread have been responding to people who wanted to "hammer" me for having the opinion I did.

Whether you agree with me or not, you can save your "hammering" for yourself.

You have more than enough biases for all of us...

Mod Note: Ladies and gents, please don't make it personal. Address the content and logic of the post, not the person of the poster. This kind of shenanigans is a large part of the edition wars - you effectively insult the person, they get mad, and generalize that to "you guys are all jerks," and the fights start. ~Umbran

 

[MerricB]

P. 53 (MM 1) - Hobgoblins get a +1 bonus to their morale
P. 67 (MM 1) – Bandits get a +1 bonus to morale, Berserkers “never check their morale.”
P. 68 (MM 1) – Cavemen receive a -1 penalty to morale, Dervishes “never check their morale.”
P. 76 (MM 1) – Orc leaders get a +1 to morale.

One of the particularly interesting things about AD&D morale is that the modifiers given in the Monster Manual (plus those gained from PHB spells such as Bless) have no relation to the actual morale system, which was a % system!

It's particularly interesting because the original D&D morale system was that contained in Chainmail, which was an even odder system - in fact, three systems (see here).

It seems that the PHB and MM of AD&D are actually using the morale system that would be given in Moldvay's Basic D&D (Holmes' edition has references to morale, but no system).

In fact, the AD&D rules for morale were of the sort that in a fight against (say) 12 goblins, the entire band of goblins would likely flee after a couple of them were slain. Five goblins slain? Automatic fleeing for the hills. I don't think I ever used the AD&D system much. Meanwhile, I used Moldvay's system extensively.

AD&D 2E's 2-20 scale seems more reminiscent of Moldvay's 2-12 scale.

Cheers!

 

[SkidAce]

Focus fire is kind of a universal tactic. You should learn it the very first time you are in any kind of conflict involving more than two beings. It's not some bizarre event caused by a quirk in the rules, it's how the real world works.

you must spread XP around etc.

 

[Hussar]

First of all, nobody "flipped out".

Secondly, with as damaging as such language was to WotC's cause in the lead up to 4E, it's paramount to even avoid the appearance of going that direction again.

Pointing it out to WotC isn't flipping out, but a friendly warning that the line still exists, and they were coming dangrously close to it. The rest of my posts in this thread have been responding to people who wanted to "hammer" me for having the opinion I did.

Whether you agree with me or not, you can save your "hammering" for yourself.

You have more than enough biases for all of us...

Let me ask a few questions then.

Did you contact the writer in any way directly? Did you comment on his blog? Did you do so in such a way that avoided direct conflict, rather, instead, attempting to open a dialogue?

I teach a course in doing business across cultural lines. The very first lesson taught is for everyone to take a step back and try to think about why someone would say something that you might not like. Is the person deliberately attempting to antagonise you or are there other factors going on? Once you've stepped back and thought about it for a second, you then re-engage by attempting to clarify the situation, rather than taking action based on your own conceptions about what is being said or what is going on.

I'm just sick to death of people blowing up over the littlest things, without making any attempt whatsoever to actually rectify the situation. If it bothers you, El Mahdi, and this obviously does since you've spent several days and significant amounts of time explaining your point of view, do something about it.

Don't start shouting from the rooftops that WOTC is bashing your favourite game yet again. Take the time to drop a polite emain to the blog writer (whose name I'm too lazy to look up) and say something along the lines of, "I was reading your blog and this line struck me. Could you clarify what you mean by this? Since I understood it to mean something else, perhaps you could edit your blog to prevent future misunderstandings."

In other words, be constructive. Because what you're doing here? Complaining to us? That's not going to do anything whatsoever.

 

[kevtar]

One of the particularly interesting things about AD&D morale is that the modifiers given in the Monster Manual (plus those gained from PHB spells such as Bless) have no relation to the actual morale system, which was a % system!

It's particularly interesting because the original D&D morale system was that contained in Chainmail, which was an even odder system - in fact, three systems (see here).

It seems that the PHB and MM of AD&D are actually using the morale system that would be given in Moldvay's Basic D&D (Holmes' edition has references to morale, but no system).

In fact, the AD&D rules for morale were of the sort that in a fight against (say) 12 goblins, the entire band of goblins would likely flee after a couple of them were slain. Five goblins slain? Automatic fleeing for the hills. I don't think I ever used the AD&D system much. Meanwhile, I used Moldvay's system extensively.

AD&D 2E's 2-20 scale seems more reminiscent of Moldvay's 2-12 scale.

Cheers!

Yes! There are a lot of situations in the 1st ed AD&D books where Gary assumes a lot on the part of the reader, and morale is one of them. The +1 for morale was a bit of a head scratcher as written: +1% or +1 as in a plus +1 sword (5%)? We opted for the 5%. We only played with morale rules as written a few times, and it slowed down combat tremendously and we were chasing monsters more than we were killing them.

My suggestion for any kind of a morale "system" in the next edition is to avoid a "system" of modifiers and rolls, and instead include an entry in the stat block that either says:

(a) The goblin is a vile creature that fights to the last man - er monster. They don't scare easily!

or

(b) A morale entry with a descriptor, e.g. Morale: Average or Morale: Stalwart - with an entry at the front of the MM explaining the various morale descriptors (e.g. Stalwart: Fights to the last monster. Average: Likely to flee after a serious loss).

I think I'd prefer (a), but I could live with (b). Regardless of the final decision, I'm going to make the system fit my style of play anyway.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Personally I hope that morale rules make it back in for 5E, even if they are totally optional. Something sort of like what I remember from 2E would be good (i.e. leader is killed -2 to morale check, more than half the group killed -3 to morale check, etc).

Heck, I think I'd even be happy with a couple of sentences in the monster entry such as: This creature will flee when attacked. However if it is defending its lair or its children it will fight to the death.

Just something to give me an indication of whether a creature will flee at the first chance, fight at all costs, something in between or if there are certain factors that will change their response.

I love the adventures that include a morale note so you know how committed to the fight they are.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

First of all, nobody "flipped out".

Dammit! It was, wasn't it...?!?

Just after I recently challenged anyone to show examples of 4E bashing in WotC's statements, and none were able to do so because there just hasn't been any...Evil_Reverend comes along and serves up a big old steaming meatball of bashing!!!

Stupid!

Stupid!

That's how it came off to me, what with multiple exclamation points, rant smileys, the weird bold dark orange text when referring to the blog author, and repeatedly calling him (or possibly his actions) "Stupid!" You should really dial it back if you don't want to come off as "flipping out."

Back on topic: There have been some really good arguments for and against Morale rules in this thread that have had my opinion swaying back and forth. I think my preference still leans toward DM-guided morale instead of hard-and-fast numerized rules.