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New to Shadowrun

One of the players in my group always says that in Shadowrun, it's not just important to have good equipment, it's to know how to use it. That can be as simple as knowing when to use a silencer instead of your underbarrel grenade launcher, or it can be about understanding what a Ballistic Shield can help you with.

Min-Maxing in Shadowrun is easy and important.

Initiative is king. If you want to spot a min-maxer, loot at how many actions he has per round. In a way, it can also be a equalizer in combat against mages - until they cast their initiative enhancing spells, at least.

Magic is per default very powerful, but I've seen a DM that liked to overuse magical background radiation. It's a tempting solution, but it is way too frustrating. If you don't want me to play a mage, say so, don't screw my character! (He did the same for a Technomancer..)

A big weakness of mages is the fact that they advance slowly. They need a lot of money and a lot of karma to get the cool stuff. They start on a high level, but getting further is a slow process.

At the same time, it seems far easier for a non-magician to just add more equipment (less so with high value cyberware, but definitely with weaponry) and expand his skills.
And in combat - a well-trained Ki Adept or Street Samurai has no problems dropping enemies left and right. It's more that you don't have much to do outside of combat that could be a problem. (But Stealth, Athletics and similar skills are still very important. They can be replaced by magical abilities, but sustaining spells is also not too easy)

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The Shadowrun equivalent of a D&D dungeon is a shadowrun, more specifically, entering corporate territory, getting to the target location (extracting someone, stealing information, sabotaging something or similar things) and getting out. Preferably in one piece, preferably unnoticed. Usually, at some point violence ensues, and that can be a lot of fun - unless the DM thinks that every corporate facility the runners enter comes with a High Thread Response teams armed to the teeth with rigger and magic support. In that case, it sucks. ;)

Describing such a run as a "sandbox" is not too bad - the sandbox might be a little smaller (you still want to take a specific run), but how the runners try that can be very free-form. But you can also railroad this, the Johnson can offer suggestions, detailed information on weaknesses that make the process straightforward or just his grand plan.

The equivalent to "you are all in a tavern" is "you got a call from your fixer".

One unique element that I don't know from D&D is the saying "It isn't a Shadowrun if Johnson doesn't frack you twice". Typically, you get hired by the same guy for two runs, and the guy then screws you over. Not paying, trying to lure you into a death trap, whatever. Please, use this scenario no more then once. ;) (But once can be effective)

The hardest part for me was always to find a motivation outside of "Your Fixer calls you with a job". Breaking and Entering scenarios can get repetitive, and motivating a team of mercenaries to do something beyond mercenary things is hard.

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On the rules front:
Multiple Actions (Initiative passes) per round thanks to the Initiative rules suck. I know it's Shadowrun standard since probably the 1st edition, but the rules just force anyone that wants to enter combat into getting reflex-enhancing items, spells or ki powers. Otherwise, combat will become incredibly boring and ineffective for your character - Combat is over in 9 seconds and you got to take 3 actions while your reflex-boosted comrades got 9, basically meaning you probably could kill 2 enemies while he killed 6. And you didn't do anything more interesting then he did - everything "interesting" you might have been able to do he could have also done.
 

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Subumloc

First Post
I think other people in this thread gave you a lot of good answers on the game in general, so I'll just address this point:

My main question then is really a call for any sort of good, introductory, published adventures. No one in either group has any real experience with Shadowrun except for the one GM I mentioned.

I started DMing Shadowrun about a year ago from scratch, with a group of players who only played D&D before. We took our time for building the characters and learning how they work, and I found myself taking a lot of decisions on the fly (especially about some of the clunkiest parts of the system, like the Matrix), but all in all it's been a great gaming experience.

We started with On The Run, which is a good adventure for a group of beginners, and comes with lots of good DMing advice (some are quite standard, but others are specific for SR) especially when it comes to groups at their first experience.
On the Catalyst Games website you can find an entire campaign set in Denver, downloadable for free (I think there are around 25 adventures). Even if you don't run them as is, you could take inspiration from them.
 

Felon

First Post
Magic will be the most versatile, strongest, and if you really go out for it, bestest character choice in the long run (meaning, if you've earned 25 karma+ total). So watch out not to sour the gameplay of the non-awakened (awakened is a SR-term for those with magical abilities, be they full magicians or adepts), when you levitate your gang, heal your wounded, manabolt any opponent, go invisible, summon fire spirits to kill entire groups, read emotions as at-will action, and mind control your way up, while the cyber-sammie can only kill people with his smart-linked gun, and do nothing else that is terribly interesting.

Hacking can be substituted by an NPC contact who does if for you, or the getaway-portion with a rigger-controlled car.
Well, you can substitute an NPC flunky to do anything. NPC mage, NPC bodyguard, NPC everything. Wny not become a Mr. Johnson and just delgate everything?

As to magic being better than any other option, that's a frequent issue in any system. none moreso than previous editions of D&D. It all seems to work out. Magic has its own costs, making them a lot more awesome on paper than in practice. As to a samurai "only" being able to shoot people--well, that covers most of what someone playing a samurai wants to do. And the sammie can conceivably do other stuff via the skill system.
 

DandD

First Post
The advice about NPC character was for things that people don't like to play, like the ever-needed hacker (decker in older editions), and the rigger, who do have a still more complex subsystem to master in Shadowrun, even with all the new streamlining.

And magic isn't just awesome on paper. Just go ask on the Dumpshock forums how to do stuff with magic that a street sam can't hope to ever achieve. In the worst case, a mage only needs to implant skillwire, and gets to have all skills of all other person for peanuts.

Oh yeah, one advice, skoriaan. Adjust the payment and karma reward so that the street sam and other cyber characters don't lag behind, or that the awakened become too strong too fast. The money reward for a shadowrun should be high enough for everybody so that they don't have to resort to stealing cars to make day's end.
Or else, once the players find out that fencing one car on the black market for only 20-30 percent still brings them more money than sneaking and eventually fighting security guards in a highly protected zone, questioning the logic of said runs and lenghty arguments with the game master about the reward will sip in.
Many times, the reward given out by SR-adventures are too small. A common critique on the Dumpshock forums.
Of course, the opposite runs true. Don't give out too much money.
 

Ahzad

Explorer
i would also suggest the Food Fight scenario, it's a classic touchstone of the SR game system. you can find it in the 4e quick start rules on their web page and i think someone posted a link earlier in the thread.

other than that i would also go with the suggestion of First Run, nice beginner scenario.

and i like others prefer the 4e rules over previous incarnations.
 

mmu1

First Post
i would also suggest the Food Fight scenario, it's a classic touchstone of the SR game system. you can find it in the 4e quick start rules on their web page and i think someone posted a link earlier in the thread.

other than that i would also go with the suggestion of First Run, nice beginner scenario.

and i like others prefer the 4e rules over previous incarnations.

Food Fight might be a classic, but plenty of people would argue that it's not good Shadowrun.

The gangers in it are packing some extremely serious hardware, begging the question why anyone with hundreds of thousands of Nuyen of cyberware would be robbing a Stuffer Shack, and the scenario can be heavy-handed about forcing the players into the kind of circumstances that (for example) riggers, deckers or faces are not well-suited for - and just generally teaching people the "wrong" way to handle yourself.

That said, it can be a blast in play.
 

Derren

Hero
And magic isn't just awesome on paper. Just go ask on the Dumpshock forums how to do stuff with magic that a street sam can't hope to ever achieve. In the worst case, a mage only needs to implant skillwire, and gets to have all skills of all other person for peanuts.

Cyberware on an awakened?
Isn't that a rather bad idea?
 

mmu1

First Post
Cyberware on an awakened?
Isn't that a rather bad idea?

Not in 4th Edition. IIRC in 4th, you don't pay the full pirce for an adept or magician, and as a result start out with 6 magic and go down from there if you implant stuff. Instead, you have to buy up magic from 0 when creating an awakened character, and cyberware just restricts your maximum magic rating.

It's been a long time since I read the 4th Ed. rules, so I could be wrong as far as the details go, but they definitely made tech/magic hybrids a lot more viable. Which is something I'm not terribly fond of, along with technomancers - as far as I'm concerned, the whole point of the Shadowrun magic system was that the marriage of magic and technology was an extremely unhappy one.
 

Ahzad

Explorer
Food Fight might be a classic, but plenty of people would argue that it's not good Shadowrun.

The gangers in it are packing some extremely serious hardware, begging the question why anyone with hundreds of thousands of Nuyen of cyberware would be robbing a Stuffer Shack, and the scenario can be heavy-handed about forcing the players into the kind of circumstances that (for example) riggers, deckers or faces are not well-suited for - and just generally teaching people the "wrong" way to handle yourself.

That said, it can be a blast in play.

yea i would agree it's not good shadowrun but i like those touchstones that games have, and those seem to be missing in a lot of RPGs now.

by touchstone i mean things that when you meet other gamers not from your group and you start talking say Shadowrun (since that's what the thread is about) food fight almost always comes up, or there was a short scenario in the older editions of Call of Cthulhu rulebook that most older players have experienced, can't think of the name of it right now, but you ended up meeting a ghoul in the graveyard, or the older classic TSR modules, be they good or bad by today's standards it gave us all a shared memory and common ground. I miss those things but I really can't see it happening in today's times the hobby has grown so wide and varied.

alright enough nostalgia....you kids get off my lawn :D
 

Not in 4th Edition. IIRC in 4th, you don't pay the full pirce for an adept or magician, and as a result start out with 6 magic and go down from there if you implant stuff. Instead, you have to buy up magic from 0 when creating an awakened character, and cyberware just restricts your maximum magic rating.

It's been a long time since I read the 4th Ed. rules, so I could be wrong as far as the details go, but they definitely made tech/magic hybrids a lot more viable. Which is something I'm not terribly fond of, along with technomancers - as far as I'm concerned, the whole point of the Shadowrun magic system was that the marriage of magic and technology was an extremely unhappy one.
I am not sure that's correct, I remember it as reducing your max rating and your current rating.

Either way, even if it does that you can got a lot of useful stuff in one essence point. (For Ki Adepts in 3E, this would typically be a Smartgun and a Data Jack and maybe some optical enhancements. In 4E, I don't know what it should be off-hand)
 

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