Next Expanded/3.5 book should be

[A'koss]

Its probably more a case of streamlining rather than reworking, with the exception of a few minor changes.

There are quite a few stumbling blocks with HL play and game balance as is which I think deters many DMs from playing levels beyond the early teens. With EL play having to build on top of this, few DMs are up to the challenge. 3e needs works before building onto it.

Unnecessary. Divinity is a dish best served as a Template.

My thought is it would probably be better to "start anew" as a 1st level divine PC class without all the mortal baggage. You can reduce up all the HL disparities in combat ability, hps, saves, AC, etc. and ditch most of the magical junk they carry around, save for a single or small number of "signature item(s)".

 

[Grimstaff]

Oriental Adventures

i would love to see this handbook redone the right way, not just updated for 3.5. The fact that the 3.0 book kept referring back the PHB was a real turn off for me, I had expected a product more like the 1E version, not something along the lines of one of WotC's D20 Modern splatbooks. I think there is definitely something to be said for maintaining a flavor, and playing a fighter or cleric in my oriental campaign just isn't the same as a Bushi or Shukenja, Whakizashi not the same as a short sword, etc. I'm unsure as to what was so hard about making this project a little more independent of the Core Rulebooks, but perhaps an update to 3.5 would be the perfect opportunity to do so?

 

[Nightfall]

Good call between you and Nightfall. A 3.5 ed of SS would be great and perhaps could bridge the gap between CR, Paragon Levels, ECL, racial hit dice and all that other bad mojo.

Well that and also help aspiring DMs that want to use monsters as races for various levels of gaming.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Gez mate - haven't spoken to you in a while, I trust you are keeping well?

Hey there A'koss!

There are quite a few stumbling blocks with HL play and game balance as is which I think deters many DMs from playing levels beyond the early teens. With EL play having to build on top of this, few DMs are up to the challenge. 3e needs works before building onto it.

I am curious to hear the 'stumbing blocks' you see in HL/EL gaming? I agree there are quite a few, most of which I think I have fixed, it could be I have missed something, so, as I said, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the matter?

My thought is it would probably be better to "start anew" as a 1st level divine PC class without all the mortal baggage.

The 'mortal baggage' is what defines a character, to throw that away is to abandon the history, identity, the very life of the character for all intents and purposes.

A characters mortal life should shape its divinity, for the few who are fortunate enough to gain such power that is.

You can reduce up all the HL disparities in combat ability, hps, saves, AC, etc.

On the contrary, the dynamic of epic gaming simply inverts how low level combat works.

Low Level Combat: Poor Attack Bonus vs. Higher AC is balanced by High Damage Percentage vs. Hit Points.

Epic Level Combat: High Attack Bonus vs. Lower AC is balanced by Low Damage Percentage vs. Hit Points.

So at low level, you take fewer hits, but when you do get hit the damage is much more severe. Whereas at epic level you take lots of hits but the damage is not so grievous.

and ditch most of the magical junk they carry around, save for a single or small number of "signature item(s)".

I agree. I have a mechanic whereby immortal characters would have four 'artifacts' (whose power grew with them) instead of two dozen (or more) magic items.

 

[Shade]

Just out of curiosity, do people really use the ELH that much? Our group thought that it was "broken" (I really hate that term but it gets the point across) and it has pretty much collected dust ever since.

Are people asking for a rewrite because....?
1. They like to read crunch even if they don't use it.
2. They use the rule set routinely and would like a 3.5 update accordingly.
3. In theory they would run epic level games but the ruleset didn't run the game effectively.

I'm currently running a 24th-level campaign (started at 1st level in Sunless Citadel) and am playing in a campaign about to go epic. So I'm largely voting based on #2.

The other reason is I'd like to see additional material, and if the Expanded Psi HB is any indication, we'd get more.

Plus, it would be nice to have most of the material in one place, instead of looking for the 1-2 feats or epic spells currently spread all over the place.

 

[A'koss]

Hey there A'koss!

Krust...

I am curious to hear the 'stumbing blocks' you see in HL/EL gaming? I agree there are quite a few, most of which I think I have fixed, it could be I have missed something, so, as I said, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the matter?

I think the biggest, for me anyway, are creating and effectively running HL villians. Managing "Power Up Suites" in combat is a huge pain. Creating and utilizing their significant number of abilities, feats, magic items into a coherent opponent for your PCs takes no small amount of time and effort. The more time you spend building opponents and learning how to use them effectively (but not too effectively... ), the less time you have on campaign development.

The frequent use of save or die abilities on either side, the great disparity in HPs, AC and attacks between the characters make it difficult to balance encounters against. Wizards are often 1 or 2 round roadkill from making the simpliest mistake or not having the right spells up or available. A challenge for one character can be extremely lethal to another. Characters who don't take significant measures to boost their weak Save(s) find they they are increasingly vulnerable to magic that targets them. Magic that can easily take a fully healthy character out of the game (at least for a time) on a single die roll.

Next I guess is the sheer amount of information everyone has to deal with from huge spell lists, to multiple magic items, to feats and power-up suites and so on. Now ELs have to build
on top of an already unweildy character/NPC granting him even more powers, spells, magic items and so on.

The 'mortal baggage' is what defines a character, to throw that away is to abandon the history, identity, the very life of the character for all intents and purposes.

A characters mortal life should shape its divinity, for the few who are fortunate enough to gain such power that is.

By 'dumping the mortal baggage' I mean moving a Fighter to something like a "Divine Fighter" class and identify his key abilities and simplify. Is he a T-W fighter, a Whirlwind Expert, a tank, a swashbuckler type, and so on. Focus on what's important and let him start relatively anew as a divine being. Just adding more powerz onto his already weighty set is not the way to go IMO. A player can usually handle his one character but a DM just gets swamped.

On the contrary, the dynamic of epic gaming simply inverts how low level combat works.

Low Level Combat: Poor Attack Bonus vs. Higher AC is balanced by High Damage Percentage vs. Hit Points.

Epic Level Combat: High Attack Bonus vs. Lower AC is balanced by Low Damage Percentage vs. Hit Points.

So at low level, you take fewer hits, but when you do get hit the damage is much more severe. Whereas at epic level you take lots of hits but the damage is not so grievous.

Heh, not so grevious? I know the shift D&D makes from high to low - I just don't agree that's the way to go as problems only exaperate the higher level you get. IME, fights rarely last long in HL/EL play, definitely shorter than say... at 10th level. Combat is highly Initiative dependent and you're forced to defend your cleric at all costs.

I agree. I have a mechanic whereby immortal characters would have four 'artifacts' (whose power grew with them) instead of two dozen (or more) magic items.

Definitely some kind of simplification is preferred to simply piling on more stuff to keep track of.

 

[BOZ]

what we really need is a book that takes the elements from ELH not already covered in the 3.5 DMG and other books, and combine that with the first few chapters of D&DG and get them all right and properly working together this time.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Krust...

Hiya mate!

I think the biggest, for me anyway, are creating and effectively running HL villians. Managing "Power Up Suites" in combat is a huge pain. Creating and utilizing their significant number of abilities, feats, magic items into a coherent opponent for your PCs takes no small amount of time and effort. The more time you spend building opponents and learning how to use them effectively (but not too effectively... ), the less time you have on campaign development.

I think one aspect of helping this is having tactics for, not just monsters, but also classes (at certain level junctures: low, mid, high, low epic, mid-epic, high epic etc.) as well.

The frequent use of save or die abilities on either side,

I think I have two ideas how to avoid this problem, one by making all save (or be affected) spells deal ability damage*, the second is by allowing characters affected by certain spells a save each round (albeit where the DC increases each round).

*In fact I have a brilliant way of applying this, but I'll keep that under wraps for now.

the great disparity in HPs, AC and attacks between the characters make it difficult to balance encounters against.

I would worry overtly about exacting balance at epic levels. From what I have seen the net effect of higher Challenge Ratings lessens the higher you ascend.

Wizards are often 1 or 2 round roadkill from making the simpliest mistake or not having the right spells up or available.

Well maybe there should be a law against stupid wizards.

A challenge for one character can be extremely lethal to another.

Thats generally why parties have a mix of classes and abilities, or a prominance of multi-class characters amongst smaller parties.

Characters who don't take significant measures to boost their weak Save(s) find they they are increasingly vulnerable to magic that targets them. Magic that can easily take a fully healthy character out of the game (at least for a time) on a single die roll.

Well I think the idea is to tweak saves so they are not so black and white - see above.

Next I guess is the sheer amount of information everyone has to deal with from huge spell lists, to multiple magic items, to feats and power-up suites and so on.

My idea for Automatic Metamagic Capacity helps streamline spell lists. The artifacts idea boils magic items down to easily manageable levels. Power-Up Suites are absorbed (for the most part) by divinity templates.

Feats would be one area where you still want to embrace the diversity, however, as I mentioned before, feat packages help when you are wanting to build PCs/NPCs.

Now ELs have to build on top of an already unweildy character/NPC granting him even more powers, spells, magic items and so on.

Buffing is drammatically lessened by divinity, you'll already have most of the buffs as standard and a double buff won't stack.

By 'dumping the mortal baggage' I mean moving a Fighter to something like a "Divine Fighter" class and identify his key abilities and simplify. Is he a T-W fighter, a Whirlwind Expert, a tank, a swashbuckler type, and so on. Focus on what's important and let him start relatively anew as a divine being.

I have found an easy way to attend to this is by feat packages. An idea adopted from D&Dg where certain salient abilities are little more than a collection of feats. Although it sounds like a well designed Prestige Class would also address some of your concerns.

Just adding more powerz onto his already weighty set is not the way to go IMO. A player can usually handle his one character but a DM just gets swamped.

Templates can also be used to streamline characters, by adding powers you can sometimes simplify abilities.

eg. Maximum Skill Ranks or Maximum Hit Points.

Heh, not so grevious? I know the shift D&D makes from high to low - I just don't agree that's the way to go as problems only exaperate the higher level you get. IME, fights rarely last long in HL/EL play, definitely shorter than say... at 10th level.

I am skeptical this is between equally matched opponents? If so, the brevity of the encounter is probably due to save or die type effects, am I right?

Combat is highly Initiative dependent and you're forced to defend your cleric at all costs.

If save or die spells are less critical, then initiative won't be so all-encompassing.

Definitely some kind of simplification is preferred to simply piling on more stuff to keep track of.

Absolutely. I think epic/immortal characters have reason to embrace artifacts to avoid being hamstrung by anti-magic and/or disjunction.

 

[A'koss]

I think one aspect of helping this is having tactics for, not just monsters, but also classes (at certain level junctures: low, mid, high, low epic, mid-epic, high epic etc.) as well.

Sample tactics are good, particularly those with set abilities, but having pre-set tactics have limited utility with NPCs, monsters with classes when there are so many options available and different synergies.

I think I have two ideas how to avoid this problem, one by making all save (or be affected) spells deal ability damage*, the second is by allowing characters affected by certain spells a save each round (albeit where the DC increases each round).

*In fact I have a brilliant way of applying this, but I'll keep that under wraps for now.

There are certainly many ways to skin this cat. The one I've liked the best so far is turning Save or Die/Nerf effects into spells more like Holy Word. Against weaker foes it is very good, but with diminishing effects as you target higher level opponents. For example, domination might affect several weak targets, 1 more powerful (but still weaker) target, control someone close to your level for 1 round or befuddle a more powerful opponent for a round as he shakes it off.

Well maybe there should be a law against stupid wizards.

You don't have to be stupid, just being caught by surprise is enough.

Thats generally why parties have a mix of classes and abilities, or a prominance of multi-class characters amongst smaller parties.

That's not the point. The point is that the disparities between the classes at very high levels means your weaknesses are, IMO, inordinately weak for your level and are too easily taken advantage of.

There's not much I can really comment on though regarding your template/feat suggestions without actually seeing them in action.

I am skeptical this is between equally matched opponents? If so, the brevity of the encounter is probably due to save or die type effects, am I right?

Just straight damage output is enough IME. Power Attacks, spell damage, uber magical weapons in hands of Warrior-types with power-up suites, etc.

Wizard and Rogue types are especially vulnerable to heavy hitters with power attack. Disintegrate, especially maximized, is another killer for those with weak Fort Saves.

Absolutely. I think epic/immortal characters have reason to embrace artifacts to avoid being hamstrung by anti-magic and/or disjunction.

Disjunction?

(squish)

I see no disjunction here...

 

[ColonelHardisson]

what we really need is a book that takes the elements from ELH not already covered in the 3.5 DMG and other books, and combine that with the first few chapters of D&DG and get them all right and properly working together this time.

SOLD!

Yeah, I'd love to see a revised and updated ELH, combined with D&DG, and maybe even combined with an updated Manual of the Planes. As for a revised ELH - keep the critters, drop the setting.