Night Hag... Give Me a Break...

[useridunavailable]

We fought one of these things accompanied by several adds. In the first round of combat, it used the following power, hitting the entire party:

Wave of Sleep (standard; recharge 6) ✦ Psychic, Sleep
Close blast 5; +17 vs. Will; 1d8 + 3 psychic damage, and the target is dazed (save ends). First Failed Save: The target falls unconscious (no save).

Of course, the power has to hit, and there is a save involved, but if one or more characters fails... do they simply never wake up (no save)? This single power has the potential to generate the equivalent of a TPK by itself, and accompanied by this power...

Dream Haunting (standard; at-will) ✦ Psychic
The night hag moves into a stunned or unconscious creature’s space and makes an attack against it; +18 vs. Will; 3d6 + 4 psychic damage, and the night hag disappears into the target’s mind. While in this state, the night hag is removed from play and does nothing on subsequent turns except deal 3d6 + 4 psychic damage to the target (no attack roll required). As long as the target remains stunned or unconscious, the night hag can’t be attacked. When the target is no longer stunned or unconscious, or when the target dies, the hag reappears adjacent to the target and is insubstantial until the start of its next turn.

...it becomes an auto-kill against anyone who fails the save, and the rest of the party can't really do anything about it at all. This seems like a very unfun combination of abilities to me. The "no save" clause... I mean, is there any other single power as ridiculous as Wave of Sleep anywhere in the entire game? Has anyone else had a problem with this power? I just can't accept it as being a fair and balanced power by any stretch of the imagination, especially when accompanied by the auto-kill effect of Dream Haunting (which requires house rules, such as "until the end of the encounter" before "(no save)" in Wave of Sleep to even matter in any real sense).

I'd really like some insight on this power, because no matter how I try, I just can't seem to view it as anything less than utterly and absurdly broken. Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[Dallas]

Page 263:
"An ally can wake you
up by shaking you (a standard action) or by shouting (a
free action)."

That should help next time. Sleep is sleep, no matter how you fell asleep, no?
Your DM may ask for the standard action, because this sleep ist magic-induced.

 

[useridunavailable]

Page 263:
"An ally can wake you
up by shaking you (a standard action) or by shouting (a
free action)."

That should help next time. Sleep is sleep, no matter how you fell asleep, no?
Your DM may ask for the standard action, because this sleep ist magic-induced.

According to the general concensus of the Sleep spell, page 263 doesn't apply here. Aside from the (no save) clause, the wording of the Sleep spell and the Wave of Sleep power are identical in the relevant portions. Therein lies the problem - it would be contradictory to rule that page 263 applies to Wave of Sleep without severely weakening the Sleep spell, which I find to be powerful but acceptably so under the ruling that the unconsciousness caused by Sleep is different from normal sleep.

 

[essenbee]

Well, you need to rouse the victim from unconsciousness - throw water in their face, for example - or you could try a Heal skill roll. Just think of ways you might bring someone who had fainted back to consciousness in the "real" world. Any of them ought to work if you have a reasonable DM, and they could all be represented by a Heal roll...

 

[useridunavailable]

Well, you need to rouse the victim from unconsciousness - throw water in their face, for example - or you could try a Heal skill roll. Just think of ways you might bring someone who had fainted back to consciousness in the "real" world. Any of them ought to work if you have a reasonable DM, and they could all be represented by a Heal roll...

The problem is that by the same token, if you have a reasonable DM, the same would necessarily apply to the Sleep spell, which at least WotC customer service has indicated on multiple occasions it does not. By the wording of the respective powers, it has to be one way or the other. The designers/developers have stated that the Sleep spell is supposed to be powerful, which in my estimation it would not be at all if such were possible.

Page 263 of the PHB only applies to sleeping characters. If the Sleep spell and the Wave of Sleep power intended for it to apply, they should state "the target falls asleep" and not "the target falls unconscious". The sleeping state is a subset of the unconscious condition to which the rules on page 263 apply - not the other way around.

 

[essenbee]

Then I have no answer for you; I'd run it the way I said, though, in my game.

 

[Chen_93]

Doesn't damaging an unconscious character remove the condition?

If not and there is no way to remove the condition (I dont have my books here), then yes the Night Hag's power removes a character from the game on the first failed save since there would be no way to ever become conscious again.

Clearly this is NOT intended. Logic says that both this and sleep get removed upon damage, just like regular sleep does. Why they didn't word it as "the target falls asleep" I dont know. Is there an actual asleep condition in the list? If not, this could be why.

 

[useridunavailable]

Then I have no answer for you; I'd run it the way I said, though, in my game.

Sure, I understand where you guys are coming from (the first person had the same response), but given the fact that the application of the PHB section in question requires a house rule, my real question is as follows:

Barring any house rules, can anyone seriously justify the Wave of Sleep power as being anywhere near reasonable and/or balanced as written?

Personally, I think the night hag as written merits some errata - it just seems too incongruous with the stated design intentions of fourth edition. Powerful I can live with; ridiculously broken permanent blast virtual auto-kill of at least one PC I just can't accept.

All the same, thanks for the replies.

 

[eloquentaction]

Sure, I understand where you guys are coming from (the first person had the same response), but given the fact that the application of the PHB section in question requires a house rule, my real question is as follows:

Barring any house rules, can anyone seriously justify the Wave of Sleep power as being anywhere near reasonable and/or balanced as written?

Personally, I think the night hag as written merits some errata - it just seems too incongruous with the stated design intentions of fourth edition. Powerful I can live with; ridiculously broken permanent blast virtual auto-kill of at least one PC I just can't accept.

All the same, thanks for the replies.

No house rule is necessary. Sleep is sleep, so page 263 applies.

Any other ruling makes the power a god killer which is clearly not the intent of the rules (you'll notice NONE of the 4E rules are insta-death).

Just. Common. Sense.

 

[Larrin]

If there is no save, and shaking/damage won't raise on to consciousness (which is indeed the current ruling, personally i think damage really should end sleep, one coup de gras is pretty good for a 1st level spell) then yes its an out of control power, relatively easy to get a sure kill unless the party can really lock down the hag and kill her before she gets cozy with your unconscious pal. it seems once she goes into his head, he's dead, nothing to do but watch it happen. Thats very much out of scale with other powers (even kill powers) that other monsters have.

Simple fix: add save ends. Boom, good but not death by nightmare every time.