Ninja: Ki Controllers

[generalhenry]

Yes they can, that's what they're designed for.

faced with multiple foes, a wizard will be torn to shreds. A warlock doesn't do as much multi target damage, but he'll survive a lot longer.

Fighters are rangers are the best classes for soloing multiple foes.

Wizards are NOT designed to solo multiple foes. And I've never seen a ninja hide behind a fighter and blast his enemies.

Only because of the extremely low hit points. A fighter, ranger, heck, even a rogue if they get hit once they're probably gonna be fine. Not the case here. Especially considering where the ninja is designed to be, which in the midst of combat.

they're not that much lower.

And the paladin has leader traits,and the fighter has controller traits. Point?

The paladin mostly has defender traits. Your ninja mostly has striker traits.

What's more ninja, mobility or AOE?

Then I'll fix it. That's why I put it up here, was to see what people thought. Not for a full blasted "your work sucks" talk from someone. I know my work needed tweaking, which is why it's here. Have the decency to give me at least that.

Your work is well past 'tweaking' it needs base level redesign. The first step is to stop trying to make it a controller. Ninjas aren't wizards.

So that way if he hasn't used it yet in the combat and if he has the oppurtunity to finish off someone he has the option. It's an option, not a requirement.

since in normal play it would mostly be used that way, I wouldn't call it an option. I'd call it the primary function.

The defender bit I'll agree with. Controller? Not so much. I still haven't seen substantial evidence that says otherwise. All I've seen is alot of people shooting off at the mouth without a good argument.

Simple, AOE is inherently ranged unless you stick to close blast 1 attacks.

Granted, your critiques are good. But maybe you should pull the venom out of your mouth first.
As for the slashing damage thing: nitpicking does not make you look cool. Or intelligent. Just angry.
Cool down.

Yes, I am angry. This is not the first attempt at a melee controller. This is the worst attempt I've seen.

Your weapons don't even have weapon types, are ninja swords light blades or heavy blades?

Cloth armor is NOT a balancing point, it only takes two feats to use hide.

Your class traits are all striker traits

Whirlinng Blades is misspelled and over powered
Intimidating Strike is a hiss based on your weapon?
Mysterious Jaunt is over powered

There's more wrong than right.

There, fixed some of the stuff brought up by the gentleman with the hot head.

I did notice, it has improved some.



And so advise.
1. Read the whole phb first
2. Ki striker

At a heroic level a ninja and a rogue are going to be 80% identical, it's only when you get to paragon level that being Ki based will allow the ninja class to differentiate it's self fully.

THIS IS WHAT I MEAN BY NINJA: PRIMARILY MELEE WARRIORS OF WHO SET UP THE BATTLEFIELD IN SUCH A WAY THAT THEY HAVE THE ADVANTAGE.

I did hear you the first time. But just like paladins are defenders with some leader traits, ninjas are best off as strikers with some controller traits.


Strikers are allowed to have AOE, even control type AOE. The only thing is their AOE doesn't do as much damage.


So build them as strikers with abilities like Sharp Stakes. There's nothing about that ability that screams out controller only. Take a look at blinding barrage.


4E rogues are very ninja like. With a short sword and Shuriken they feel very ninja. There's the minor factor of armor, but could be covered with a single +2 AC while unarmored feat.


So making a ninja is a great challenge.

Here's the D&D definition

"Ninja A 1st edition character class loosely based on the Japanese ninja in the 1985 Oriental Adventures, the Ninja was introduced into 3rd edition in Complete Adventurer. Ninjas are focused on stealth and mobility, and possess a sudden strike special attack on unprepared foes. They also use ki similar to a monk and can turn invisible."

and some wikipedia articles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjutsu

 

[Khaalis]

4E rogues are very ninja like. With a short sword and Shuriken they feel very ninja. There's the minor factor of armor, but could be covered with a single +2 AC while unarmored feat.

Technically I wouldn't even go that far. Historically speaking, ninja DID wear armor when going into expected battle. The same basic armor design as a samurai in fact. The only time they didn't wear said armor is when they were attempting to blend in with the peasantry. The shinobi shozoku (the movie famous black ninja suit) is something that was born in the Kabuki theater Noh plays as stagehand clothing, and has nothing to do with historic ninja.

The closest thing I have seen to "real" ninja armor in a movie would in Batman Begins, with 2 major exceptions. Ninja colors would have been either deep red or dark blue for night camouflage or white for snow, or would have been standard samurai armor coloring (thus a wide range). The second would have been either the use of sanjaku-tenugui or a samurai helm - though the batman-ninja armor is a half way between style.

With that said, I would classify a ninja as the same as a rogue when it comes to armor. As generalhenry points out - the rogue IS a ninja. If you want to create the feel of a practioner of modern ninjitsu it should be a paragon path. It would then gain access to the more ki powered "controller" style maneuvers.

JMHO.

 

[Deodanth]

(Dupe post, my bad)

 

[Deodanth]

Hey Spyders, if this is your first attempt at HR posting then I do admire your bravery in taking what amounts to some stiff, but useful board criticism.

I agree with you that the melee controller IS a valid role, but sorry, the ninja ain't it. I agree with Henry that ninjas (your version or others) remain strikers wrapped up with some control abilities. 3e had some good melee control builds, none of which looks much like a ninja. And for your 4e melee controller, look no further than the Warlord.

With that said I started to read your build and got no further than class features.

Smoke Bomb
Encounter, Ki, Personal
Standard Action Close Burst 5
Effect: All creatures within the area gain concealment except to you, granting combat advantage. This lasts until the beginning of your next turn.

Shouldn't this be an item? Or does your ninja have a bottomless pouch full of smoke bombs? Which in every other edition was an alchemical item, and either expensive or had to be self crafted.

Make it an ammunition item, come up with a price for it, and then tie the power to it. Read p.281 and decide whether the smoked squares are lightly or heavily obscured. Reduce the burst size to 3, or 4 at most. Burst 5 creates an AoE 11 squares on a side, and no other starting character has an area power even close to that size.

Ninja sword: Superior Weapon. +3, 1d6 Versatile. Slashing damage

Um, this is a Longsword with reduced damage. Doesn't really fit the qualifications of a superior weapon, in fact it goes the other direction. What you've made is a shortsword that only ninjas will ever use, and never offhand. Also by giving it the Versatile property, you prevent a halfling ninja from wielding it one-handed.

Instead, give it the same properties as a rapier, but requiring its own proficiency. Now that's a weapon that will be coveted, and not just by collectors.

Nunchaku: Superior Weapon. +3 1d6 High Crit. Blunt damage

This one's better. Drop the "blunt damage" (as already pointed out) and make it part of the Flail group. It has the potential for some interesting attack powers, using disarm or entangle effects.

 

[generalhenry]

I'm not sure there even needs to be a 'ninja sword'
Ninjas used short swords.

It's the same as samurai and katana, just use bastard swords.

 

[Deodanth]

I'm not sure there even needs to be a 'ninja sword' Ninjas used short swords.

It's the same as samurai and katana, just use bastard swords.

Right, but the Bastard sword and Katana (in 3.x) are both exotic weapons, with a lesser mode for those with only martial weapon proficiency. I'd go with the same feel for the Ninja-to in 4e.

Then again, it could just be a plain old shortsword.

 

[generalhenry]

Ninjas where not nobles with fancy swords. They where peasants trained to do the nobles dirty work. They really did use plain old short swords.

 

[SpydersWebbing]

Hey Spyders, if this is your first attempt at HR posting then I do admire your bravery in taking what amounts to some stiff, but useful board criticism.

Actually, this is my first attempt at any sort of homebrew at all on a board. The comments are useful, if not a little harsh at times. The usefulness I can stand. The harshness? We'll just say that I've been taught to give back ten times what I've been given, so it's been interesting holding my tongue. Civilization is made of control.

Shouldn't this be an item? Or does your ninja have a bottomless pouch full of smoke bombs? Which in every other edition was an alchemical item, and either expensive or had to be self crafted.

The idea I had was that whoever was in the class had a secret recipe that they had, known only to fellow ninjas. They have enough smoke bombs to always use one per encounter, but no more. It wasn't so much a realism factor I was going for, but one for expediency that allowed someone playing a ninja to just assume that the necessary materials were there. Powers like Sharp Stakes come to mind as well. Would a player REALLY be that paranoid? Probably not. But his character? He's a ninja, he better be that paranoid.

What I have in mind is actually very different from the rogue. The rogue runs in and hits people. The ninja IS the battlefield. He controls it all, knowing it far better than anyone else.

Your work is well past 'tweaking' it needs base level redesign. The first step is to stop trying to make it a controller. Ninjas aren't wizards.

I agree with the first point, I disagree with the second. In terms of effects the ninja is the wizard, however. All the ninja's power comes from fear (as Batman Begins brings up), and there has to be a way to simulate that. My thought? By manipulating the battefield itself.

For someone who claims to know the system so well you don't seem to know this: the system is built for results. Look at what I'm trying to "simulate". It could work VERY well. Granted, I'm not the best, but also granted is that this is my first attempt. And I'm a stubborn little man.



I'll take the class back to base "code". I'll have something up in a new thread in probably a few days to a week. I've got some ideas now. I'll do a bit of research and do a little bit of combos of ideas and such.

Last thing to respond to, really.

Wizards are NOT designed to solo multiple foes. And I've never seen a ninja hide behind a fighter and blast his enemies

You've never seen a ninja hide? Good.

You sound like you're still in the old way of thinking (3E), which is that a class is supposed to stand on its own. I'm not thinking that way. I'm taking the effect that a "good" ninja would have on the battlefield IN A TEAM and trying to put into game terms.

What would a ninja do in a diverse team? He'd set people up for hits, he'd turn the battlefield against them by using traps, he'd be frightening the heck out of his foes with wild moves, targetting multiple people, since fear works best in a group concert.

That's what I'm designing for. If you have a problem with it being called ninja, then YOU come up with a better name for it. But if you keep being so rude I will ask a mod to block you out. I shouldn't be taking so much flak for something so trivial. For murdering your brother? Well, that's a bit more understandable? But for this?

Cool off, henry.

 

[generalhenry]

You sound like you're still in the old way of thinking

Have ninjas charged?

What kind of ninja are you creating?

What are your references?

Batman?

If you have a problem with it being called ninja, then YOU come up with a better name for it.

Yes ninja is the wrong name. But even if it had a good name it would still be junk. Melee controllers don't work.

But if you keep being so rude I will ask a mod to block you out.

lol