ninja, sudden strike and strategy

[SorvahrSpahr]

I'm about to play a ninja and have a few questions for the experts

I read somewhere that you could make a tumble check and attack with the rogue's sneak attack, is this true for the sudden strike too?

you can sneak attack someone with a ranged weapon if they are within 30 ft IIRC, is this true for the sudden strike?

and to end it. Which feats do you guys think that would fit a ninja? I was planning on going for a ranged ninja. but if there are better feat setups for them as melee fighters, I'm all ears

 

[Victim]

Rogues use Tumble to sneak attack because they can easily move into a flanking position. Sudden Strike doesn't work against flanked enemies, so Tumble is less useful (but still good) for ninjas.

You can Sudden Strike at range within 30ft.

As a ranged ninja, I'd grab Point Blank, Precise and Rapid Shot quickly. You'll mostly be shooting from within 30ft anyway, so Point Blank works for you - plus you need it to get the other feats. Considering that other people in the group will be in melee, Precise Shot is like +4 attack all the time. And Rapid Shot lets you double potential sudden strike damage.

Melee stuff exposes the ninja to more risk, but offers more endurance since you can feint to deny Dex if uses of Invisibility run low. Many multiclasses will also favor melee; the ninja/monk with Ascetic Rogue in our game is pretty good. But for a pure ninja, ranged combat is probably the way to go.

 

[SorvahrSpahr]

i didn't thought of the rapid shot, these are my current feats

point blank shot
precise shot
stealthy
ready shot
staggering

i have b.a of +6/+1 does that mean that with rapid shot I'd be doing 2 sudden strikes? I'd ghost step and then hit the enemy, would it be sudden strike, normal blow, sudden strike?

 

[szilard]

Another possibility:

Multiclass with Monk and use Flurry of Blows with shuiriken.

I don't know how effective this would be, but the idea seems kind of cool.

-Stuart

 

[SorvahrSpahr]

it would be cool. but the shuriken is nly 1d2, even with flurry of blows it would be something like...3d2 damage. although it is kinda cool picturing a monk throwing a shower of shurikens

 

[szilard]

it would be cool. but the shuriken is nly 1d2, even with flurry of blows it would be something like...3d2 damage. although it is kinda cool picturing a monk throwing a shower of shurikens

I was thinking more along the lines of using them with sudden strike - the base damage wouldn't be the point - the sudden strike damage would be. That is assuming you'd get sudden strike damage for each attack - which you may not. I dunno.

-Stuart

 

[SorvahrSpahr]

yeah that's what I'm thinking too

with rapid shot for example i'd get 3 attacks my attack would become 4+1/-1+1/4+1 that means I'd get 3 sudden strikes? if so, attacking with the short bow, it would be something like this:

1d6+1+5d6/1d6+1+5d6/1d6+1+5d6

is this right? it seems a little too much for 1 turn

(the +1 is from precise shot)

 

[rowport]

I'm about to play a ninja and have a few questions for the experts

I read somewhere that you could make a tumble check and attack with the rogue's sneak attack, is this true for the sudden strike too?

you can sneak attack someone with a ranged weapon if they are within 30 ft IIRC, is this true for the sudden strike?

and to end it. Which feats do you guys think that would fit a ninja? I was planning on going for a ranged ninja. but if there are better feat setups for them as melee fighters, I'm all ears

Sorvahr-

I don't know if I would call myself an expert, but I am playing a Ninja now, so maybe I can share some playtesting experience. First off, I would be very cautious about focusing too much on using ranged attacks. Without the extra Sudden Strike damage, the Ninja's damage output is so low that you will get outclassed very fast in combat. It is generally harder to get Sudden Strike with ranged attacks than with melee attacks. Admittedly, staying out of melee will help your survivability with low hit points, so I can see why you would do that, but...

I use Combat Expertise/Improved Feint pretty frequently. The combo gives me an AC boost to better avoid being hit back in melee, and the Feint (as move action) sets me up for a Sudden Strike pretty reliably. That saves some uses of Ghost Step (Invisible) for when I need them. Or, I can use them in combination againt a tough opponent, so that the +2 to hit while Invisible balances out the Combat Expertise for +2 AC. All of these only work for melee attacks, of course.

For ranged attacks, I rely on Hide and/or Invisibility. I am multiclassed as Cleric with Trickery domain, so sometimes I use Invisibility instead of Ghost Step (Invisible); if you can find a way to get Invisiblity via Potion or whatever, do that. With the Sniping rules, you can snipe from hiding to get your Sudden Strike, then Hide again at -20 penalty. That is nearly impossible at low levels, but gets better at mid-levels. Remember that this only works within 30 feet, though, which is another reason not to ignore your melee skills, for when the enemy runs over to you!

Other feats that may help: Cloak Dance (Complete Psionic) gives you Concealment to Hide. That is useful when there is no Cover around. Neraph Throw (Planar Handbook) denies DEX bonus for ranged attacks. There are several sneaky feats in PHBII that will work for you.

Essentally, I would recommend literally thinking 'like a Ninja'. *ALWAYS* be trying to Hide, just as a good habit. Ask your GM about terrain and cover in every place you enter, just to keep your options clear. Good luck! It is a fun class to play.

 

[SorvahrSpahr]

Sorvahr-

I don't know if I would call myself an expert, but I am playing a Ninja now, so maybe I can share some playtesting experience. First off, I would be very cautious about focusing too much on using ranged attacks. Without the extra Sudden Strike damage, the Ninja's damage output is so low that you will get outclassed very fast in combat. It is generally harder to get Sudden Strike with ranged attacks than with melee attacks. Admittedly, staying out of melee will help your survivability with low hit points, so I can see why you would do that, but...

I use Combat Expertise/Improved Feint pretty frequently. The combo gives me an AC boost to better avoid being hit back in melee, and the Feint (as move action) sets me up for a Sudden Strike pretty reliably. That saves some uses of Ghost Step (Invisible) for when I need them. Or, I can use them in combination againt a tough opponent, so that the +2 to hit while Invisible balances out the Combat Expertise for +2 AC. All of these only work for melee attacks, of course.

For ranged attacks, I rely on Hide and/or Invisibility. I am multiclassed as Cleric with Trickery domain, so sometimes I use Invisibility instead of Ghost Step (Invisible); if you can find a way to get Invisiblity via Potion or whatever, do that. With the Sniping rules, you can snipe from hiding to get your Sudden Strike, then Hide again at -20 penalty. That is nearly impossible at low levels, but gets better at mid-levels. Remember that this only works within 30 feet, though, which is another reason not to ignore your melee skills, for when the enemy runs over to you!

Other feats that may help: Cloak Dance (Complete Psionic) gives you Concealment to Hide. That is useful when there is no Cover around. Neraph Throw (Planar Handbook) denies DEX bonus for ranged attacks. There are several sneaky feats in PHBII that will work for you.

Essentally, I would recommend literally thinking 'like a Ninja'. *ALWAYS* be trying to Hide, just as a good habit. Ask your GM about terrain and cover in every place you enter, just to keep your options clear. Good luck! It is a fun class to play.

i see. in that case, would sudden strike hit if the enemy is paralyses? or staggered?

 

[Plot-Device]

I played a ninja. I'll share too:

Dragonbreath arrows from one of the new books (maybe Complete Adventurer) are very fun. They only do 1d4, but if they hit, the target has to make a save of catch fire, which is good in long fights, or to dispatch pesky weaklings (casters).

Carry Tanglefoot bags, smokesticks too. Some poison too if you can afford it, even the weak stuff. The amount of options availible to you is directly proportional to your combat effectiveness.

Don't bother with stealthy. While it's amazing a low levels, at higher levels you'll just be sad when you see it there. At higher levels if a Hide check is really THAT important, you should have potiions of inviso on hand. I took it, and I was sad later on.

If minor bonuses is what you're after, go with Dash, it'll help you move in and out of combat, which is something you'll want if you're going ranged.

Why on earth do you not have improved initiative. I know it's cliche, but it's soooo nessecary. It's the only way outside of improved invis to get 3 sudden strikes.

Consider some of the mage slaying feats from complete arcane.

You have no strength bonus at all? Or just no comp shortbow? If not, I'd really recommend it, at least a 12. 33lbs for a light load isnt much, so anytime you get any loot you'll go to medium unless you're rocking some bags of holding. If you do multi to monk you have to have high Wisdom anyway, which makes no armor a serious possibility.

Only your first attack coming out of Invis is Sudden. Ever. Once you attack, you break the invis, and they gain their dex back.