D&D 5E No Cantrips Module

[Sadras]

Those two are the kind of cantrips I would like to see, they can be very versatile, they don't feel like a finished spell but as fracture of one, and they can be used by an innovative player to cause mayhem in interesting ways.

Great ideas - I like. I still prefer them being limited in one way or another despite there being removing combat cantrips. The limitation would be linked to endurance, so you're able to keep summoning arcana but at what cost. A number of possible choices have been given in this thread alone. And the reason for this insistence is primarily because that's how our group views magic - conceptually, and being able to create fire/water continuously hinders survival style play and opens up the door to possible abuse. i.e. using prestidigitation continuously during card games and the like to make monies all day long.

 

[tuxgeo]

< snip >
Edit: Never mind; misread something.

 

[Shadowsoul]

I don't have a problem with cantrips in general, but I realy dislike most of the attack cantrips. For me, a cantrip is a inor magic, easily mastered by some one who is dedicated to studying the Art and a stepping stone for more potent spells, but not something very powerfull on its own.

Lets take for example Ray of Frost as one of the most iconic offenders, it does the same damage equivalent to a long sword and it for a hindering effect on top of it and that completely disregarding the fact that it just feels meh.

Here are a couple of cantrips I would like to see:

Fire Fingers (Minor Flame) - you conjure a small flame on one of your hands (in your Palm or any of your fingers), the flame cast light as bright a candle and you can use it to light up any easily flammable objects, the flame itself will cause 1d6+int modifier points of damage to any object other than you, while you have the flame in your hand your hand is immune to fire. You can only have one flame at a time.

Ice Shard (Ice Dagger) - You conjure a shard of ice in your hand, the shard is generally shaped like a crudely fashioned dagger and as such have the same characteristic as a normal dagger but you can fashion it as any kind of tiny crudely fashioned object, the shard will last for 10 minutes, by the end of this time the shard will dissolve to a tiny puddle of water.

Those two are the kind of cantrips I would like to see, they can be very versatile, they don't feel like a finished spell but as fracture of one, and they can be used by an innovative player to cause mayhem in interesting ways.

Warder

What about having Fire Fingers just do Int mod damage?

 

[Blackwarder]

What about having Fire Fingers just do Int mod damage?

Why?

Warder

 

[Sword of Spirit]

First, who cares what happens at 20th level? Seriously, most campaigns don't ever get that far, and the issue focuses on where most campaigns will experience the issue. So it's nothing like the 5d8.

About a minute ago I was arguing pretty much the same point you are making (but regarding a different mechanic). I think these are the sorts of "peripheral" aspects of the game where we pick and choose which we care about. In this case, I do care about it. I remember talking to a friend about some 3e houserules and how it would make certain options a bit stronger at lower levels, but a bit weaker at higher levels. He immediately asserted that that was a horrible way of balancing things. Upon reflection I decided that I agree with him, and I still do.

It's true that most campaigns that start at 1st level aren't going all the way to 20th level. But I don't only start campaigns at 1st level. Sometimes I even like an epic campaign.

Second, saying 5d8 with three exclamation marks (and multiple times too) doesn't actually make it more than it is - and what it is, is low damage in this context. 5d8 is about 22.5 damage. It's only 22.5 damage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For a 20th level character, this is not particularly meaningful. Due to bounded accuracy, their attack role is still sometimes failing (for zero damage), and the monster they are attacking has a lot more hit points, and often has a lot more means to be outside the range of that spell (but likely still in the range of a crossbow). Meanwhile, they have so many spells, which do so much more damage at those levels, that it's even more silly to be putting three exclamation marks next to 22.5 damage for a regular attack spell requiring an attack roll at 20th level.

Bottom line, your 20th level character won't be common, and even when they do come up, they won't be using this spell much anyway. They're going to wish they had a longer range attack when facing that ancient red dragon.

But that's a playstyle expectations concern, not a given. With the modest number of spell slots given it's quite likely that even a 20th level character is going to use up all of his higher ones in a long days adventuring, and find that 22.5 being his most appealing combat option.

Also, the whole point of this is that those who are most likely to want to nix at-will cantrips are also those who want the style of game where a wizard without his daily spells has the worse attacks in the party. Part of the goal is that the wizard's attacks should have a very small contribution once he's used his spells--more encouragement to manage his resources carefully.

So if he has a built-in at-will bazooka that he rarely uses, he still has it and it effects game immersion experience. And if he has an at-will bazooka in a game that has long adventuring days, he most likely will need to use it.

So we're really talking about much lower levels - levels at which the crossbow does around the same damage. Because ability scores naturally go up but they max out at 20 this way, and because Dex is generally the second best score for a mage, we're talking about +3 to +5 damage for their crossbow (which has a much longer range than the ray of frost). So that crossbow is doing better damage than the spell at low levels, and continues to roughly keep up through 9th level. From 10th to 14th level it starts to do about 4-5 points damage more than the crossbow, which just so happens to be the levels where that 4-5 extra damage becomes less meaningful as hit points continued to go up, your other spells continue to do more damage, and your attack rolls are still failing sometimes due to bounded accuracy. And that's also around where most campaigns seem to end, according to survey data.

Bottom line, for most campaigns, it's a very marginal difference. An awful lot of people will want to choose a different cantrip than an attack cantrip, particularly once they start to crunch the numbers and see how little difference it makes relative to the crossbow, and the added range of the crossbow.

I am glad you like the attack cantrips and think they do AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!! amounts of damage. But my mages will never be taking any of them, unless they find a scroll of them. They're not good spells. I'd much rather have minor illusion, light, read magic, and mage hand.

My mage would likely learn just about every cantrip I can get my hands on. I'd even learn and use attack cantrips if they scaled the way I'd prefer them to (2d8 at 8th level, 3d8 at 14th level).

Remember that attack cantrips come with extra effects; and I'd probably say Constitution is a contender for everyone's second favorite stat.

I think our disagreement here is mostly about whether this peripheral matters. This is one of the issues that feels like it matters to me, and isn't one of those issues for you. No problem, I enjoy most of your posts.

 

[LightPhoenix]

If the concern is the frequency of use (which it seems to be), by far the simplest and most elegant option is simply having Vancian spell slots for cantrips. Similarly, if the concern is attack cantrips, simply remove them from the game. However, that's not strictly what the question asked.

Instead of cantrips per se, what I would do is link minor magical effects to first level spells. As long as you have a first level spell memorized, you may use the cantrip version of the spell at will. Thus, they're not infinite but at higher levels are more likely to be available. A simple version would simply link cantrips to spells: Light/Burning Hands, Dancing Lights/Color Spray, and so on. Personally, I'd tailor it a little more to each spell. For example:

Burning Hands
Cantrip: As you extend a finger, a small flame blossoms at your fingertip. It is the size of a candle's flame and provides a similar amount of light. Objects that can be ignited with a candle can also be ignited with this spell. Dousing the finger in liquids or depriving it of oxygen will extinguish the flame.

Detect Magic
Cantrip: Squinting, you focus your attention on a magical object that you can see. Magical writing, runes, glyphs, and other magical symbols on the object may be deciphered as if you were reading them. Only one object may be focused on at a time.

Cause Fear
Cantrip: The murmur of voices dies as you enter the room, but slowly returns to normal. While the cantrip is active, creatures in your presence feel ill at ease. Dogs may whimper, snakes and cats may hiss, farmers may act subdued, guards may act wary, and so forth. The exact effect depends on the creature.

 

[Shadowsoul]

Why?

Warder

Well I view cantrips as very basic spellcasting. Actually, I don't even view it as "full" spellcasting, so lowering the damage to just Int mod would reflect that basic level instead of Int mod plus the damage equal to a shortsword.

 

[Mistwell]

Now that we know the Warlock has spells per short rest, as opposed to per day, I think that mechanic can easily be applied to mage cantrips (and possibly will be). So, your Intelligence modifier number of times between short rests, or even just once between short rests for each cantrip slot.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

If the module is meant to make cantrips more similar to earlier editions, I'd simply say you have 3 cantrips per day, you can still cast read magic at will, and you get an extra 1st level spell slot.

 

[keterys]

If the module is meant to make cantrips more similar to earlier editions, I'd simply say you have 3 cantrips per day, you can still cast read magic at will, and you get an extra 1st level spell slot.

I'm really not sure we need to make casters more powerful, especially at early levels where a 1st level spell can decide an encounter on its own sometimes, while also reducing the likelyhood of the cantrips being used for general magical fun (prestidigitation, minor illusion).

At later levels, admittedly, that'd pretty much work out fine since both the cantrips themselves and the 1st level spell slot are largely ignorable. Still, it feels like sacrificing fun flavor for no gain.