No "death penalty"

Psion said:
Somewhat like you, I don't want life restoration magic to be the implicit option when someone dies, and think it should be a more rare event. But at the same time, I don't want to penalize players for wanting to bring their character back.

Find me the magic solution that fulfills those goals, I'll be pretty happy. :cool:

A random resurrection chance? :D

Like, if you want to come back, you can without any penalties, but you have only a 20% chance (or whatever). It's the only way I can think of reducing the amount of resurrections in the game, besides making it penalizing to come back.

It's not what you want, I am sure. You want to guarantee the option to someone who want to use it. But then you can never lower the frequency if you don't make it more convenient to choose not to resurrect. Unless you beg/bribe the player maybe :D

Then there was my weird idea in that link, that basically "lowers" the frequency of death-resurrection by pretending the character was never dead in the first place. But I guess you want something more solid, that doesn't rely on such a strong suspension of disbelief to work.

Beyond these I cannot help... I have never seen the problem solved in any RPG, and I'm certainly not the one who will find the miracle cure :)
 

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Li Shenron said:
It's not what you want, I am sure. You want to guarantee the option to someone who want to use it. But then you can never lower the frequency if you don't make it more convenient to choose not to resurrect. Unless you beg/bribe the player maybe :D

Actually, Bribe is the way I am leaning, along with short term penalties. I'm toying with the idea of "karma bonuses" that apply to your new character if your old one elects to stay on the fields of Elysium / hang out with his new buds in the Einheriar / etc.
 

Psion said:
Find me the magic solution that fulfills those goals, I'll be pretty happy. :cool:

... I like Evilhalfling's idea:

Evilhalfling said:
I use a negative level penalty instead - It can't be removed by magic, but disappears with time - ie 3 weeks (based on HR calender signifigance) it could be 1-4 weeks, or even as long as a season.

The penalty also vanishes if the character gains a new level.

... Though personally, I'd make it last until a new level is gained, but let magic remove it after a week or so...
 

I'm just starting out as DM after being a player for quite some time, and I've decided to make a few large departures from the way things have been going up to this point. We've made changes to make death penalty much less than the loss of level and whatnot, but we've also developed a bit of an attitude where "I've got a 5000g diamond in my pocket, so I can go ahead and charge that monster with no preparation or planning before hand."

The difference I intend to impose is that in the new world, resurrection spells are very rare and slightly against the law and would entail a minor quest of sorts to even find someone who could (and would) cast one. I'm hoping to instill a slight sense of reality into our fantasy world where death is scary and to be avoided.

With that said, I'm thinking of giving each character a "fate" point that can be spent to "avoid" death (really...immediately bring back from death for free with no penalty). They can earn another one on 3rd or 5th level (going to play that by ear for now...want to see how many times they actually need it) if they've spent theirs. If they still have theirs then it upgrades to a "greater fate" point that can be spent to survive any saving throw and then it turns back to a regular "fate" point.
 

airwalkrr said:
Getting rid of the death penalty huh? Sounds like a violation of ENWorld posting guidelines. Seems a bit too political.

;)

Now that was freaking hilarious.

Anyway, not sure who posted it but I like the Karma idea. Sounds like it could have some really cool affects.
 

Tyonisius said:
Anyway, not sure who posted it but I like the Karma idea. Sounds like it could have some really cool affects.

That would be me.

It's been a while since I visited this thread, but this has evolved into a unified solution along with my "xp-less level tracking" solution. I'm sort of not addressing the issue of magic item accumulation because for the purposes of the current game, I am considering keeping magic items low.

But what I do is now:
  • All characters have same level and XP total
  • I split action points into fortune, essence, and karma
  • Fortune is the base 5 points per level, "use or lose", have standard action point functions.
  • Essence points are 1/2 character level, also "use or lose", but in addition to standard action point functions, can be used to pay for XP draining spells and item creation (at rate of 1000xp/point) AND can be used to defray lost levels, at 1/point. This includes lost levels from energy drain or raising. If you have no essence points, you still don't lose levels; you gain a persistent negative level until you can pay it off.
  • Karma points are awarded by the DM and are not "use or lose"... they remain after you gain a level or even when you make a new character. Other than that, they have the same functions as essence and fortune points.
 

I have a few ideas that aren't really what you're looking for, but something I think I'm going to try soon in my own campaign.

If someone dies, they must win a duel with something in the afterlife to be rezzed. Perhaps an outsider, a radically different NPC of the opposite alignment, or maybe a opposite-alignment version of themselves. Whatever the case, the duel should be challenging, and if they win the duel they are eligible to be brought back from the dead. If they lose, perhaps they can try again sometime later, or maybe they can't be rezzed ever again. Storyline wise, this could take place on a neutral plane, or perhaps under a god related to death, balance, duels, or something else.

Another possible rule would involve a more abstract penalty, perhaps something like not coming back with your soul. It's awkward, yes, and would require a lot of rules, but it might be an acceptable penalty for dying.
 

In theory this is cool but in practice its not terribly pratical. I tried something similar and it just led to a bunch of problems:

-Your first idea of other penalties is promising, although you have to be careful to not penalize the whole party for one character's death. I did something similar, using a PARTY XP rather than individual and ran into the problems of "What about when someone misses the game for a week, they don't get our xp do they?" and "My character was the spokesman, the diplomat and disarmed every trap in the place and I get the same xp as everyone else?" Bottom line, whatever you do, make sure its fair and no one else feels slighted by it

-The idea of only making magic that restores without level loss I also tried and that created its own problems. For one, they knew the town priest was 17th level (since he had true res) and kept going back to him for spells like heal and divination and scrying, etc, all spells I didn't want them to have access too. They became dependant on him - so he died in the next adventure as part of a murder mystery.

Also, if its very expensive, they aren't likely to want to come back. Whats the point of having my fighter back if I had to sell all my gear to bring him back. Now I have a MW sword and no way to hurt anything with damage reduction magic. This also hurts the rest of the party since they have to pony up some serious money (25k!) to bring back a friend. And at levels like 9th or so when raise dead becomes available, they don't even have that kind of gold for their own gear. And that leads to my last point:

-No raise dead makes for an unhappy group, believe me. If I've been playing a character for almost a year and love him and his abilities to the core and you kill him off with no chance of bringing him back, I'm going to be mad. I know it sounds silly, but players like playing the same character. Also it creates a sense of togetherness and unity that a constantly changing group doesn't. If two players have characters that are friends for a long time that makes for more interesting adventures later on, "this is just like the time we took down the warlord of Argmath on the Isiam peninsula, remember?" Where as, "Whats your name again" pretty much sucks.

Character death is a VERY tough thing to balance since its not even fair to the party roles - the up front fighter is more liekly to die than the wizard and priest casting spells in the back. I made my peace with it after several times of getting it wrong. I let it go knowing that eventually the lower xp player will catch up eventually since they get more xp for each encounter.

I suggest encouraging the priest of the party to be a Favored Soul and learn the spell Delay Death, that has slowed the character death rate by alot!

When I tried this out in my campaign, no one was afraid to die since there was no substantial penalty for it. It was like a video game and there was no sense of drama to the combats because no one cared if they died. Now, knowing they'll lose a level, they fight tooth and nail to survive as anyone in those kind of situations should.

To make a long story short (too late, I know) I stopped trying to "fix" the raising system and made my peace with it since everything I tried made for a much more pointlessly complicated system. Does it suck? Yes, but it should, you died and you're brought back from the dead, that can't be (and shouldn't be) easy.
 

I also like the Karma thing. I'll show that to my DM when I get back to school.

useridunavailable said:
Every single monster had scryed on us and knew what I could do, everything had ray deflection, etc.

Props to your DM. One of mine right now is a story teller dealing with a whole party of powergamers and doesn't know what to do. I'm ... the only player who knows how to RP as well as #-crunch, and so I've been side-tracking the party to let the DM shine.

airwalkrr said:
Getting rid of the death penalty huh? Sounds like a violation of ENWorld posting guidelines. Seems a bit too political.

Ah, that's too bad. I just gave out my last four internets yesterday, otherwise you'd win one. You totally deserve it more than the last guy, too.
 

[*Raise thread*]

I've been thinking of a permanent stat penalty instead of xp loss. A random stat seems a good system, but how much of a penalty?

1 point? 1d2, 1d3? Our current house rule is the loss of half the xp needed to hit next level. How much of a stat penalty seems fair then? I'm inclined to keep it at one point, as it's kind of a high magic campaign. (Savage Tide in the Forgotten Realms).
 

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