D&D General No Fixed Location -- dynamically rearranging items, monsters, and other game elements in the interests of storytelling

[FrogReaver]

If they're going to find the letter no matter what they do, their agency becomes no more than an illusion. Same is true if they're going to meet Brash the Ogre no matter whether they go left to room 6, ahead to room 11, or right to room 14.

Meaningless choice (ie agency) is an illusion as well.

Pick left, right or neither is the choice. You have full and total agency in making that choice. However, it's a totally meaningless choice/agency because you have no information by which to make a meaningful decision.

In other words, taking away meaningless agency isn't something to be frowned upon. Do that as much as you desire. However, never take away meaningful choice as that's the path to railroading and the actual illusion of choice.

 

[FrogReaver]

It's real simple: if the letter's in the Chamberlain's desk and they don't search that desk, then they don't find the letter and have to proceed without it.

And if this means they don't get the clue they need and thus end up failing the mission or proceeding on wrong information, then so be it.

Yes, IF the letter is in the Chamberlain's desk...

When exactly does it get fictionally established that the letter is in the Chamberlain's desk?

 

[Fenris-77]

If they're going to find the letter no matter what they do, their agency becomes no more than an illusion.

It sounds like you're replying to my post, but you can't be, because I made it pretty crystal clear that this wasn't a case of "find no matter what you do" but rather "find it after a very well thought out bit of role playing, and a bunch of well thought out player choices, just not where I expected them to look".

If I take the time to outline an example clearly, it's always nice to have people read it before they tell me I'm wrong.

 

[Lanefan]

@FrogReaver - in post 271 you've attributed my words to @NotAYakk , which may or may not be what NotAYakk wants today.

 

[FrogReaver]

In my megadungeon campaign, there are tons of secret sub-levels, treasure rooms, teleporters, hidden stairs that have simply never been found. They exist independently of the players. They have not been found simple because the players have chosen not to explore in that direction, or interact with a particular room or thing.

What prevents you from changing your mind about where one of the treasure rooms is located?

Say on Monday you design your dungeon and it looks good.

However, looking at it on Friday you decide you don't like where one of the treasure rooms is located so you move it. Did the room exist in the fiction on Monday? What about on Friday?

Now what is the difference between deciding to move a treasure room on Friday and deciding to move one in the middle of the session?

 

[NotAYakk]

@FrogReaver - in post 271 you've attributed my words to @NotAYakk , which may or may not be what NotAYakk wants today.

I contain multitudes. I may not be a Yakk, but I am Legion.

 

[Lanefan]

Yes, IF the letter is in the Chamberlain's desk...

When exactly does it get fictionally established that the letter is in the Chamberlain's desk?

When I design the adventure (or when I decide to agree with the module writer who put it there, if running something canned).

Things can be (and are) established in the fiction long before the players/PCs get there.

 

[Prakriti]

I made it pretty crystal clear that this wasn't a case of "find no matter what you do" but rather "find it after a very well thought out bit of role playing, and a bunch of well thought out player choices, just not where I expected them to look".

Yes, it's about rewarding players for smart play and good roleplay. You can think of it as an extension of the Inspiration system. If a player does something you like, then you reward them.

 

[FrogReaver]

@FrogReaver - in post 271 you've attributed my words to @NotAYakk , which may or may not be what NotAYakk wants today.

Apologies, I blame enworld for the error.

 

[Lanefan]

It sounds like you're replying to my post, but you can't be, because I made it pretty crystal clear that this wasn't a case of "find no matter what you do" but rather "find it after a very well thought out bit of role playing, and a bunch of well thought out player choices, just not where I expected them to look".

If I take the time to outline an example clearly, it's always nice to have people read it before they tell me I'm wrong.

Doesn't matter how well-thought-out their role-playing and-or choices are, if they look in the wrong place they don't find it. The adventure is what it is, and if they interact with it in ways I don't expect then so be it.