No full attack option?

[Stone Dog]

But if I duel with two rapiers... I deal… 2d6??? And I wasted a feat?

Feats are less of a waste if you get them every other class level as well as 1,3,6 etc. Also, we have no idea what sort of talents might be available to a swashbuckler character.

 

[Wystan]

Don't worry, I just called Mikey Meals on the phone asking about that. He told me to go read the latest Playtest Diary, where the Ranger attacks 3 times in a round.

Let me repeat myself....


I think they may be looking to take a page from Spycraft - 2 Actions per turn. Whether this is 2 Attack Actions, 1 Move and 1 Attack, or 2 Move Actions is up to the player. This would easily explain the 3 Arrows from the first Level character - 1 for the Counter Attack, and 2 for the 2 Attack Actions. If I recall this also still allows a 5 Foot Step to be taken as well...

Just my 2cp

 

[sidonunspa]

I already see tons of two-handed fighters in 3E. Power Attack anyone?
Two handed fighting is a poor choice in 3E, lots of attacks, few hits, poor damage. It's cool though...

I keep wondering who plays these weak two-weapon fighter types? I look at my duel longsword using Wild Elf Ranger/Champion of Coralin/Holy Liberator in LG... My attacks are sick and I can deal a crazy amount of damage.

And yes, I power attack...

Funny right before the 4e announcement some of my friends where going to work on a power-gamers blog (thus becoming every GMs worst nightmare…)

One attack per round? Who said that?

Well in Star Wars the only way to get your full melee attacks is by standing very still... and there is no 5' adjustment... so every round all the GM has to do is back up 5' back after getting one attack in and well.. All your two handed fighting feats/talents are worthless...
(See the example of the duel wielding Jedi above)

We don't know that. The lack of "full attack" doesn't mean you can't get two attacks in a round. There could be new mechanics in place to allow that.

Well unless its an advantage over "rain of blows" which I'm willing to guess is an extra attack as a swift action, I don't see how they will do it...

Lets say they make two-weapon fighting give you an extra attack as a swift action.. well why would I take that of I can get it with the longsword (rain of blows) and still use a shield

I guess I will be worried until I hear something official otherwise.. which I won’t be holding my breath for.

 

[Stone Dog]

Let me repeat myself....

More likely, SWSE pulled its actions from a 4e draft so we'll be getting one standard, one move and one swift and the choice to downgrade them standard to move and/or move to swift as needed.

 

[sidonunspa]

Don't worry, I just called Mikey Meals on the phone asking about that. He told me to go read the latest Playtest Diary, where the Ranger attacks 3 times in a round.

with a bow....

Again, ranged character has an advantage.. the target can move, you can stand still and get all the attacks you can...

 

[sidonunspa]

More likely, SWSE pulled its actions from a 4e draft so we'll be getting one standard, one move and one swift and the choice to downgrade them standard to move and/or move to swift as needed.

But you are still limited to one swift per turn no?

 

[William Ronald]

You're forgetting a very important point, though.

If I understand properly, the addition of maneuvers (or powers, or techniques, or whatever you want to call them) isn't just an "add on" to classes like the fighter. It's as integral to their repertoire as spells are to the wizard. I think one of the primary reasons for the removal of the "full round action" is that it's no longer necessary, because martial characters will be using maneuvers as often as wizards use spells.

And a great many of those maneuvers--again, if I understand properly--are weapon-based.

So yes, there will still be plenty of reasons for using a rapier, or a rapier-dagger combo, because it'll rely on a different array of maneuvers and techniques than the greataxe or greatsword will.

I played an Iron Heroes adventure once, an adaptation of White Plume Mountain. The combat went well, and the option of having different maneveurs for characters to use was enjoyable.

Mind you, what is unknown about 4E is larger than what we know at this point. However, as Pbartender pointed out, different weapons will have different maneveurs associated with them. So, I think the goal is to make sure that someone who fights with sword and board style, with a spear or a halberd, or with a great sword or with dual short swords can be as effective a fighter as the others. A lot of what a fighter will be able to do seems to depend on using the weapon that he is most familiar with. So, a character who fights regularly with a longsword and shield might be better with that combination than with a great sword or with dual weapons.

 

[Stone Dog]

But you are still limited to one swift per turn no?

No. You can either get three of them if you push your other two down to swift, or two if you can only demote your move to swift and not your standard. I forget which one it is, but a Second Wind takes three swift actions and I'm pretty sure you can get one on your turn if you do nothing else.

Edit- so if I am remembering right, you always get three actions. One standard, one move and a swift. Two moves and a swift. One standard and two swifts. Three swifts. Something like that I'm about 90% certain, but I'm at work and I can't check.

 

[med stud]

I keep wondering who plays these weak two-weapon fighter types? I look at my duel longsword using Wild Elf Ranger/Champion of Coralin/Holy Liberator in LG... My attacks are sick and I can deal a crazy amount of damage.

And yes, I power attack...

Funny right before the 4e announcement some of my friends where going to work on a power-gamers blog (thus becoming every GMs worst nightmare…)



Well in Star Wars the only way to get your full melee attacks is by standing very still... and there is no 5' adjustment... so every round all the GM has to do is back up 5' back after getting one attack in and well.. All your two handed fighting feats/talents are worthless...
(See the example of the duel wielding Jedi above)



Well unless its an advantage over "rain of blows" which I'm willing to guess is an extra attack as a swift action, I don't see how they will do it...

Lets say they make two-weapon fighting give you an extra attack as a swift action.. well why would I take that of I can get it with the longsword (rain of blows) and still use a shield

I guess I will be worried until I hear something official otherwise.. which I won’t be holding my breath for.

I quote you since you seem concerned that TWF will be weaker compared to 2H- weapons in 4e than in 3.5e; TWF already is weak with a regular fighter, mainly due to the ½ Str bonus on the off hand weapon. A fighter with Str 18 deals 2T6+6 damage with a great sword, without feats. A fighter with longsword + shortsword deals 1T8+1T6+6 which is highter but he hits 10 % less of the time and he has to spend a feat for this; great sword fighter uses two feats for specialization, longsword + shortsword has to spend 4 feats. You can get around the spending of four feats by using 2 short swords but then you are down to 2T6 damage anyway. Also, when not full attacking, dual weapons are just useless.

With a talent system I imagine that two weapon use gets some bonuses like getting AC from the off hand weapon, attacking two different targets without penalties on attack rolls, rend like attacks and if you can move and make several attacks in a round you also can bring your weapons to bear.

TWF in 3.x is only good for style- reasons, it's almost always suboptimal compared to sword/shield and two handed weapons.

 

[Stone Dog]

However, as Pbartender pointed out, different weapons will have different maneveurs associated with them.

This is very important to remember. Two weapon fighting may actually have more to do with being able to use two weapons effectively by having access to both sets of manuvers at once. Somebody hefting a rapier and a main gauche without two weapon training may only be able to use the manuvers of one of the pair, while a two weapon fighter would be able to use the main gauche's defensive manuvers as well as the rapier's offensive speed.