No love for Oathbound?

[DMH]

If you don't like the races and want to just use the core ones, check out pages 25 and 26- they give where the core races are most likely to be found.

As for not using the given races, I personally have altered all the humanoid animals. The valco (goat people) have been replaced by the Bhruu (intelligent bison from StarDrive). The frey (cat people) look nothing like cats- just a cosmetic change. The vogel are no longer birds, they are wingless reptiles that fly through innate magic. Actually this is just like the same crunch, different fluff thread for creatures.

I have made some other major changes- Anvil is steampunk in nature, the bloodlord of Utopia is an evil mercury dragon and tech using gnomes rule large chunks of Arena (since they have the wells and tech to purify the water). But it is still the Forge in feel.

 

[Turjan]

While I do represent a publisher, I do consider myself a gamer first and foremost. We who are publishers are also allowed to comment on things in the RPG world just like anyone else. In it’s context, my first post was more from a gamer standpoint if you’ll allow me to separate the two.

Fair enough. But don't be surprised that a post signed with "Bastion Press, Creative Director" will be taken as a company statement.

On the flip side, critics of publisher (reviewers or otherwise) should in turn be open to other critics (publisher or otherwise) -- it is only fair. While I may have a bit harsh, that was the basis of my previous posting.

I'm fine with publishers answering to critics. I was specifically commenting on some details in your answer. My declared dislike of a particular art style does not mean I'm into children-style comic book art and a language that makes the "ABCs for Barbarians" look like Shakespeare.

At the core of my argument was the discussion of art, since it seemed to be at the core of everyone’s “no love for Oathbound”. Oathbound or otherwise, it burns me a little that people tend to judge a product more on it's art rather than its contents.

Art in books is a two edged thing. RPG books without art are hard sellers. We already heard about the importance of the cover art, and in this point, the Oathbound Campaign Setting (OBCS) succeeds. In the interior, art is supposed to carry ideas over to the reader. There are bad examples of RPG books where art is just put in to make the book look nice without connection to the text, and this is not the case in the OBCS; here the art is clearly meant to illustrate the accompanying text, which is a good thing.

It is said that one picture says more than a thousand words. Good illustrations enhance the image of the world that builds up in your mind. Illustrations that the reader does not like have the opposite effect: they attach themselves like a stain to the image of the whole product, and it costs quite a lot of energy to get rid of these mental images and to abstract the contents of the book from these concepts that burnt themselves into the brain. This is an effort you cannot take for granted.

Truth be told, I'm not a huge fan of Todd Morasch's art (or maps) either, and I told Jim as much after he published MINIONS long ago.

The funny thing is that I actually like some of his stuff. As art, some pieces are considerably expressive. I like to stress that the question we are pondering here is not, whether his illustrations are good art or bad art. The question is whether the art is functional. As his pieces are often quite disturbing, my answer to this question is no.

However, critics of Oathbound and Todd's art make it sound like he is the *only* artists for Domains of the Forge, be it the core book or something we published last month.

Well, most people are just considering the OBCS. There, his influence is dominant (The border art does not help, either.). The point is that the "flagship product" will always determine the view of the whole thing. You don't like that approach, but there's nothing inherently wrong with that method.

In addition, many of our critics fail to bring forth the fact that Jim is the only original member of Bastion Press still around. Both Todd and Greg have moved on since before the publication of Wrack & Ruin, and both Oathbound and our d20 lines have continued to grow with new artists, layouts, and other aspects of overall design. Often this seems to be forgotten when taking the entire campaign into account, which does nothing but irritate my so indicated thin skin. How many other publishers who have been around since the onset of d20 have changed the way they do products, art or otherwise, over the years? Probably everyone; yet Oathbound is the most heavily criticized for something that was done two years ago and the campaign is not taken into account as a whole (i.e. six products total and counting).

Okay, I understand that you were involved with follow-up products of the orignal OBCS book and don't want to suffer from the legacy of your "elders". Although I can sympathize with your point of view from a personal standpoint, I think you should calm your emotions down in this point. It's like forcing people to judge the Forgotten Realms only if they have read all supplements, and this is quite a ridiculous notion. I'd try with a more positive approach. Instead of being defensive with products that you had no influence on, you should take a positive approach with the newer stuff. I admit that I don't know anything about Arena (except the things in the OBCS).

Yes, art is important, but it is not (in my book) what an RPG product is all about. If that were the case, D&D would have never became this popular because the original blue and red box set look like they were designed on Sesame Street compared to today’s *standards*. People tend to forget those humble beginnings of our favorite hobby, and often let is skew their overall opinion of product.

You see? Why not follow your own advice and let the beginnings be the beginnings. It's beyond your power to change anything with the OBCS of 2002. The time is too short that people might have forgotten the "humble beginnings" of OB; they are still fresh in their minds. You cannot change anything about it by attacking their views. If you want to change their minds, show them your new ways .

If you thoroughly read through my post Turjan, you will notice that I made the statement that all of our critics are listened to, whether we agree with them or not, and all critiques are weighed by our entire design team. If there are overwhelming issues, we do address them. In addition, I did defend the right for everyone to have an opinion, which I do fully support.

This is good to know

What I personally do not care for is when people do not take the time to fully understand (or read) the product and circumstances they are critiquing. If after all that, someone doesn’t like Oathbound, then that is their choice and I respect that – but don’t come online and belittle a product when not taking the entire product into account. It is nigh impossible to design “the perfect product”, it is more important to us that we strive to design “the perfect campaign”, because in the end I believe that is what really counts.

Okay, I have definitely read the whole Oathbound Campaign Setting book (the core book, which is a valid option to base an opinion on) and raised concerns regarding art, maps and rules. I said that I find the concept of this setting fascinating. I just did not get the images out of my mind . If you want to change this, convince me of your new ways.

 

[BradfordFerguson]

I think that Bastion is awfully defensive as a company. Instead of criticizing those who critique, maybe you should focus your statements on what Bastion is doing now and how you've changed. Sometimes I wonder if Bastion has lost touch, doesn't watch their competition, or just doesn't care what people think because of the defensive attitude I and others get.

Someone who I work with was asked by a friend to approach the Bastion booth at GenCon and talk about their playtest of Oathbound. He told me he felt he was "sized up" and that Bastion didn't care to talk to him.

Anyways, I think that Bastion is doing some good stuff. Their art is better, their borders are better (though I can't speak for the latest OB release). The visual appeals of Doom Striders and Into the Blue are great and I love the cover for Wildwood.

I don't care for the curled leather (or is it flensed flesh?) of the former Bastion covers and 2/3 of the image being obscured by a plain background (even for Into the Blue and Doom Striders), so I'm heartened by the new look for Wildwood.

I also thought the borders for former OB releases are too distracting and doesn't convey anything. The borders are nice for Into the Blue and Doom Striders and each conveys the subject matter. The borders for the OB line looks like a mix-matched pile of claws and...? Is it supposed to be a Rorshack shape? Regardless, it's clear that Bastion Press is making strides.

 

[tf360]

I think that Bastion is awfully defensive as a company. Instead of criticizing those who critique, maybe you should focus your statements on what Bastion is doing now and how you've changed. Sometimes I wonder if Bastion has lost touch, doesn't watch their competition, or just doesn't care what people think because of the defensive attitude I and others get.

Personally, I don't think that I've been defensive at all. If there's valid criticism I'm more than willing to listen to it and do what I can to make changes. I believe that Steve and Kevin have pointed out that the art direction and design have changed since the original sourcebook, and the response that we've been getting recently has been very favorable. Torn Asunder won a silver Ennie. Arms & Armor has gotten a lot of very positive feedback and reviews, and to a lesser degree Mysteries of Arena has also done well (it already sold out). The art is far more realistic looking than in the earliest products, both cover art and interior art, and the layout has also improved thanks to feedback that we had received and responded to as well as software upgrades.

[/QUOTE]Someone who I work with was asked by a friend to approach the Bastion booth at GenCon and talk about their playtest of Oathbound. He told me he felt he was "sized up" and that Bastion didn't care to talk to him.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry if your friend felt that way. I spent a lot of time in the booth at GenCon and frequently heard the exact opposite from customers. Believe me, I'm a friendly and outgoing guy with a future career in preowned automobile retailing, (just ask Hal Greenburg and the Fiery Dragon guys). I saw a lot more smiles on people's faces around our booth, especially after I was pushing the give Hal a hug promotion, than at a lot of other places. More than one customer told me that some other vendors wouldn't even talk to him/her, let alone look at him until he opened up his wallet and handed the counter person his credit card or cash.

[/QUOTE]Anyways, I think that Bastion is doing some good stuff. Their art is better, their borders are better (though I can't speak for the latest OB release). The visual appeals of Doom Striders and Into the Blue are great and I love the cover for Wildwood.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. The concept for Wildwood's cover was my idea. If only I draw something more intricate than stick figures I'd have a future as an artist.

[/QUOTE]I don't care for the curled leather (or is it flensed flesh?) of the former Bastion covers and 2/3 of the image being obscured by a plain background (even for Into the Blue and Doom Striders), so I'm heartened by the new look for Wildwood.[/QUOTE]

Arena and Mysteries of Arena also used the full page image. I'm not sure of the terminology for the borders on those products.

[/QUOTE]I also thought the borders for former OB releases are too distracting and doesn't convey anything. The borders are nice for Into the Blue and Doom Striders and each conveys the subject matter. The borders for the OB line looks like a mix-matched pile of claws and...? Is it supposed to be a Rorshack shape? Regardless, it's clear that Bastion Press is making strides.[/QUOTE]

Yes the interior borders for Into the Blue and Doom Striders are an improvement thanks to feedback and once again upgrades in technology.

 

[BradfordFerguson]

Well, either Bastion considers all criticisms or they first determine whether the criticism is valid or not before considering it.

I don't see why people would come to the thread to purposefully bad-mouth Bastion or Oathbound. The title of the thread is "No love?" so naturally people are going to post either that they love it, say what they didn't like about it, or say they didn't like it. I agree that criticisms like "I hate it," or "It's garbage," without a reason should be disregarded, but if someone gives a reason, then you may want to consider it.

Praise can be the same way. One of the people I game with buys each D20 Filtered issue and says, "I thought it was really good." So I ask him what is really good about it? He says, "because it's cool that someone I know is working on it and it's cool to know the person behind a product." I disregarded that praise because it says nothing about the product.

...though if he said "I like the industry articles." but didn't say what was good about them or if he simply liked that there was a presense of industry articles, then that would be frustrating, too. Information is golden.

 

[BastionPress_Creech]

I think that Bastion is awfully defensive as a company. Instead of criticizing those who critique, maybe you should focus your statements on what Bastion is doing now and how you've changed. Sometimes I wonder if Bastion has lost touch, doesn't watch their competition, or just doesn't care what people think because of the defensive attitude I and others get.

I wouldn't say we are any more defensive than other publishers that frequent these boards. For example, Green Ronin, Kenzer, and Malhavoc will often get involved when someone starts to make accusatory comments or baseless slams against their products or companies. If you have paid attention to many of the posts by Bastion staff, you will see that we are trying to focus on is what Bastion is doing as a result of the comments and criticisms folks have made. As a company, we do listen to gamers who purchase out products and make the changes we feel are warranted. If you (or anyone else) are passionate about helping Bastion improve upon future products, then join our playtest group. Our playtesters are the ones who really help shape what the final product looks like.

Someone who I work with was asked by a friend to approach the Bastion booth at GenCon and talk about their playtest of Oathbound. He told me he felt he was "sized up" and that Bastion didn't care to talk to him.

I don't remember any of the staff being dismissive to the gamers there. Could it be that this person showed up at a time when we were busy and unable to give him the attention he felt he deserved? If your friend has concerns about Oathbound, ask him to drop an email to Jim Butler. Gen Con tends to be a hectic time and concerns such as his may be better addressed through an email when more time can be taken to consider his opinion and feelings.

Anyways, I think that Bastion is doing some good stuff. Their art is better, their borders are better (though I can't speak for the latest OB release). The visual appeals of Doom Striders and Into the Blue are great and I love the cover for Wildwood.

Thanks. We are making strides to make each product the best we can.

I don't care for the curled leather (or is it flensed flesh?) of the former Bastion covers and 2/3 of the image being obscured by a plain background (even for Into the Blue and Doom Striders), so I'm heartened by the new look for Wildwood.

Wildwood represents a new approach and. to a certain extent, an experiment in the way future products may be put together. Sales and feedback will determine whether we are successful.

I also thought the borders for former OB releases are too distracting and doesn't convey anything. The borders are nice for Into the Blue and Doom Striders and each conveys the subject matter. The borders for the OB line looks like a mix-matched pile of claws and...? Is it supposed to be a Rorshack shape? Regardless, it's clear that Bastion Press is making strides.

Yes, we are.

 

[DarkWhite]

Constructive Feedback

Hi Bastion and board members,

I've been following the replies and counter replies with interest, and have strong opinions of my own, which I hope will be taken as constructive feedback.

I have purchased most of Bastion Press' softcovers. Arms and Armour was awesome first time around, and I can't wait until the 3.5 hardcover hits my local store in Melbourne, Australia. I have also bought the Oathbound hardcover, and one other Oathbound supplement. Following are my impressions:

Much has been said about art vs content. From Bastion's replies on this issue, I think they vastly underestimate the effect that good artwork has in supporting a product. If you're reading about a new creature or race, you REALLY need a good image to accompany it, because it conjures the imagination in ways that text description alone cannot. It also helps to set the scene, mood, tone of the product/campaign world, without having to read large amounts of text first.

First impressions are very important with limited time flying through a bookstore once a week on my way home from work, and good artwork and layout helps to convey what I might expect from a product. For this reason, online reviews are also very important to me, where I can read them at my leisure at home or during lunchbreak.

If there's one thing I have learned from brief teaching/instruction, its that different people absorb and relate to information in different ways. Some people are "visual" people and learn best by reading; others are "audio" people and learn best by hearing, while others learn by "doing". The best way to get your message across to a wider audience is to try to engage them by a wide range of methods. Talk them through your presentation, have overhead-transparency slides and handouts, and use audience participation or get them to do practical tutorials.

In the case of a printed product, of course you're restricted to what you can display on the printed page. But to draw customers in and keep them engaged, you'll need to use a combination of engaging text description, as well as imagination provoking images. Many people will skim through a product, stop at a race or prestige class because it's picture strikes their interest, before reading the accompanying text to see what their character might gain from it.

It was mentioned that D&D products of the 80s were sold by the quality of their content, and visuals weren't a requirement to selling a product. While this may have been true then, this isn't the situation today. Times have changed, customers expect much more from their product than they did a decade or two ago. While some companies emulate the nostalgic 1st Edition look and feel as a marketing technique, I don't believe that is what Oathbound is aiming for, it won't sell more Oathbound product, and neither should it be used as an excuse to dismiss artwork over content.

I hope my criticism isn't viewed as being too harsh. To be fair, the art in the Oathbound hardcover did contain some really excellent art among some otherwise rather ordinary ones. It has been stated that Bastian Press' art has undergone some change in recent products, I'll need to take a second look.

However, Art isn't the ONLY consideration when buying a product. I have other comments I'd like to post about Oathbound content, but as I've exhausted my lunchbreak, they'll have to wait for next time. Cheers

 

[DarkWhite]

Constructive Feedback

Oathbound contains an odd assortment of player races. Actually, I think Oathbound's races are original and thought provoking. The Ceptu certainly brings a new approach to a player race, and each of the others has their own niche in the world of Oathbound. I think Oathbound's races are one thing that set it apart from other campaign settings, which helps to emphasise that these beings are pulled from alien worlds, and aren't your standard Tolkein races, which is a good thing for players looking for something different.

Prestige Races were also new at the time of it's release, although other campaigns have since adopted a similar mechanic. I very much like the concept of Prestige Races, although I dislike having to pay for them with experience points. There area two options for Prestige Races as I see it:

1) They should simply be Racial Feats; or
2) They should be Racial Levels (complete with Hit-dice, BAB, etc)

Both of these methods are built from rule mechanics which already exist in the game (Feats or Class Levels), thus lending internal consistancy and balance, instead of tacking on a new system.

Taken as Feats or Levels, you won't need to worry whether Prestige Races affect CR, or give an unfair advantage to a character played outside of Oathbound, because Feats and Levels are already factored into the game. Giving characters additional advantages outside of their regular Feats and Levels is simply "Power Creep" and should be avoided. If you want your characters to be more powerful, then do it the standard way .. level up!

If there were ever a 3.5 revision of the Oathbound hardcover, Prestige Races is something I would like to see reworked as Feats or Levels.

Oathbound attempts to be all things to all people .. port your characacters in from any other campaign setting. However, I am someone who prefers low level adventures, start with 1st level characters and work your way up. I found Oathboud deliberately written with higher level play in mind. Of course, if you want to play 1st level characters in an Oathbound setting, there is nothing stopping you. However, the rules actually state "in a typical Oathbound campaign, characters normally start at 7th level".

Although it is increasingly common, particularly in WotC's own products, for player races to have level adjustments, I find it particularly frustrating to have character races that I can't take at 1st level. You expect level adjustments for higher level creatures found in a monster manual, but it is frustrating for races standard to a campaign setting. There are already a variety of ways to make creatures more powerful .. give them character classes, prestige races, advance them as monsters, etc. It would be nice to have more +0 level adjustment races for players to choose from, and advance them as adversaries as needed.

For some of the powerful creatures listed in Minions (eg Asherake), another option might be to have "young" versions of them playable as player races, and use Racial Levels to build them up to the standard creature after a level or two. Each Racial Level would in effect replace a +1 level adjustment.

I realise new player races, prestige classes, and other player options appear in each sourcebook. But maybe a "Players Guide to Oathbound" would do well, gathering all the character options under one cover and updating and expanding on them. Something I noticed in the Oathbound hardcover was that the descriptions for each race weren't consistent. Some had headings for Personality, Religion, etc, while others didn't.

I'd also like to see a hardcover 3.5 revision of Minions: Fearsome Foes, with new creatures (and races), better layout and refreshing artwork.

Either of these books should be good stand-alone purchases for players in non-Oathbound campaigns looking for new options, just as Arms and Armour is. However, they also present an opportunity to draw new players into the Oathbound setting.

I guess all I am trying to do is answer the original post of this thread, from my own experience .. why, given it's apparent strengths, does Oathbound seem less popular than other settings? Well, a seeming lack of low level options discouraged me. And while some of the creature artwork was quite good, others appeared more as grotesque drawings which I really couldn't identify with, much less feel inspired to play as a character of my own. A roleplaying product needs to breathe life into a player's imagination. Artwork is as essential as content in this regard. While Bastian Press' artwork may have changed in recent products, Oathbound still refers to Minions for it's creature selection.

 

[Psion]

I didn't like name Feathered Fowl. Maybe it is my non-english speaking thing, but it remains me too much of chicken flock. I was paintaking to come up with translation that didn't sound stupid. Fowl and flock aren't separete words in my language as far as I know.

If one were to look up fowl in an english dictionary, the definition you would find is somewhat akin to:

fowl ( P ) Pronunciation Key (foul)
n. pl. fowl or fowls

1. Any of various birds of the order Galliformes, especially the common, widely domesticated chicken (Gallus gallus).
2.
1. A bird, such as the duck, goose, turkey, or pheasant, that is used as food or hunted as game.
2. The flesh of such birds used as food.
3. A bird of any kind.

Now in the context of Oathbound, three seems the most clear (a bird), though 2-1 seems a strangely appropriate "hidden meaning" given the setup of the campaign and secrets of the feathered fowl.

Perhaps you could make them sound more threatening by using synonymns of "hawk" or "raptor".

 

[Teneb]

...SNIP....Oathbound attempts to be all things to all people .. port your characacters in from any other campaign setting. However, I am someone who prefers low level adventures, start with 1st level characters and work your way up. I found Oathboud deliberately written with higher level play in mind. Of course, if you want to play 1st level characters in an Oathbound setting, there is nothing stopping you. However, the rules actually state "in a typical Oathbound campaign, characters normally start at 7th level".

...SNIP....I realise new player races, prestige classes, and other player options appear in each sourcebook. But maybe a "Players Guide to Oathbound" would do well, gathering all the character options under one cover and updating and expanding on them. Something I noticed in the Oathbound hardcover was that the descriptions for each race weren't consistent. Some had headings for Personality, Religion, etc, while others didn't.

I'd also like to see a hardcover 3.5 revision of Minions: Fearsome Foes, with new creatures (and races), better layout and refreshing artwork.

Personally, I always thought the "characters start at 7th level" thing was bunk. I've never used it. My campaigns have always started, at most, at 5th level.

Oathbound Players Handbook.....hmmmm.....good idea

Minions was updated to 3.5 and is available as a PDF on RPGNow and DriveThruRPG.

Thanks for your comments DarkWhite, they're appreciated. I definitely think you should check out some of the latest Oathbound products; art, which you so eloquently spoke of, has taken a different turn in products after IIRC Wrack and Ruin. Wildwood should blow your socks off (provided you wear socks.)