D&D 5E No Magic Shops!

[Matrix Sorcica]

So... wealth must be useful just because it exists?

It seems like you're approaching this from a purely mechanical stand point of progression paths. Finding loot has always been a part of D&D, but so has the story wherein that loot is found. If the story doesn't feature wealth expenditure during uptime, as with the oft-cited ToA, then your problem should be with the story, not the system.

No because the system makes a big deal out of distributing it.
So only stories that allow for adequate downtime are worthwhile? I disagree.

 

[Fanaelialae]

No because the system makes a big deal out of distributing it.
So only stories that allow for adequate downtime are worthwhile? I disagree.

Where are the detailed rules for using rope? Where is the mechanical support for rolling a flaming barrel filled with caltrops down a hill? These things are in the equipment section, so shouldn't the designers support them?

Gold, like anything else in your inventory, is only useful insofar as you find a use for it. There are numerous non-downtime uses for gold, including purchasing passage to a new area, bribing NPCs, and as an aid to role-play (such as a cleric tithing to his church or a former orphan donating to an orphanage). The possibilities are bound only by one's imagination.

Does that mean that the DM will have to come up with rulings on how to handle these situations? Of course. But in a game that it is limited only by one's imagination, that is naturally to be expected.

I'm not of the opinion that the game NEEDS an exhaustive list of things you can spend gold on, just because gold exists. If the designers want to provide a list of suggestions, that's fine, but I don't feel that the game lacks for want of such.

 

[Nevvur]

No because the system makes a big deal out of distributing it.
So only stories that allow for adequate downtime are worthwhile? I disagree.

I don't share your assessment, but we can settle it as a difference of opinion on what constitutes a big deal. A few tables in the DMG does not a big deal make, IMO. The other half of your big deal was the amount of wealth distributed in the APs, but again, that's a story element, not a system element. If I'm missing something else, please share.

 

[Krachek]

Answer to [h=1]CapnZapp[/h]
I take a look to your magic shops.
It is what most DM account for:
Nice variety and sometime thematic items. Price may be adjusted.
We share the same definition of a magic shops!

About the legacy of magic item market, I would say that 5ed, decided to set a lot of mechanics to the 'Entertainment level'.
They didn't have others choices. Their developpement team was reduced at the minimum and they need to aim a wide market of customers.
To aim a wide market of various playstyle they sacrifice some precision and sharpness.
This decision is reflected in all aspect of the game.
You may be angry about the fact that 5ed lack of sharpness for an experiment level of play.
But don't count on new materials or even a 6ed to gets better in that way.
You will need to adapt existing material for the best.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Wow, I'm falling behind on this thread....

... or explain how you find time to construct wizard's towers et al, when your employer dies in 77 days, as is the main plot of the latest hardcover.

In either case, your stance is indefensible.

My first answer is: "You don't." You focus on finishing the adventure, and then for levels 11 to 20 you can take your time and figure out how to spend your gold.

My real answer is: if you need to fall back on the plot of just one of the published adventures to defend your position, you may want to re-think your argument.

Because I specifically asked about uptime only, since that is what my and others' beef is about. So I don't feel you answered my question.

But that's a totally artificial constraint. Downtime exists. If you don't use it in your game that's not really a valid basis for complaining about other rules. It reminds me of the Warlord debate:

"Warlords need to heal because all other healing is magical."
"But...but...it's a game about worlds that have magic."
"Yeah but we don't use magic in our game."
"..."

The first time you find a sword +1, it's a cool find. After years of play and several characters/campaigns, it just doesn't have that wow factor. It's still a desirable item, because of its obvious utility, but it's not going to impress them.

If you want the sword +1 to retain it's "wow", you probably need to play with new players. That's the only way to keep having that first time.

That it is useful is not in doubt, just like the usefulness of the sword +1 is not in doubt.

But if you're expecting players with years of experience to get excited because they've found a sword +1, you're probably going to be disappointed.

I'm confused how the discussion shifted from magic shops (or at least non-random availability of magic items to buy, at prices that 'make sense' according to an imagined market....which itself is totally subjective) to "magic items should feel special". Why is it WotC's job to make magic items feel special? Is it WotC's job to make every Orc unique and memorable? If you, as a DM or player, cannot make up some fluff to make a +1 sword feel unique, I think you are playing the wrong game.

Furthermore, an example of how "broken" rarity pricing is is that a Vicious Weapon is more rare than the mathematically superior +1 Sword. Well...isn't that exactly what you are asking for? The Vicious Weapon is more "special" in the way you are describing, thus it costs more. WTF are you actually asking for?

Or do you expect them to be surprised when they discover that trolls regenerate but not fire damage!!! ?

(Ironically, I believe @Maxperson does in fact expect them to be surprised, based on opinions he has expressed in threads about metagaming.)

Thank you for asking.

I use Sane for reference, mainly as a shorthand for having a think about a certain item myself. In short, if an item is priced by Sane at 25,000 gp that tells me "probably not appropriate for my players until tier III".

Very much unlike WotC's rarity system, Sane represents somebody actually thinking about how an item influences and changes gameplay. They even have a small list of completely gamewrecking items that they refuse to price! This is very useful to a hard-working DM.

Problem is; it's all far too direct a d20 conversion to be truly useful.

(etc.)

I just want to point out that you keep citing support for buying weapons in previous editions as evidence that WotC is obligated (because of their "promise" to support all playing styles) to continue doing so. But you also claim that previous attempts were poorly done and illogical.

Since the current version is also poorly done and illogical (by your assessment) haven't they met their obligation to provide you the same experience you are used to?

Finding loot has always been a part of D&D. The DMG has tables upon tables for distributing treasure. You get more and more as levels increase.
Why? If there's nothing to spend it on? If you're supposed to spend it only on downtime, why is this part so vaguely supported?

I have to say, of all the arguments for magic shops, this one you keep harping on ("they give you money, so they should be giving you something to spend it on, and I'm going to keep narrowing the parameters until nothing qualifies except magic items") is the least persuasive. So unpersuasive, in fact, that although I started off the thread opposed to magic shops I actually find myself more opposed 26 pages later.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

I have to say, of all the arguments for magic shops, this one you keep harping on ("they give you money, so they should be giving you something to spend it on, and I'm going to keep narrowing the parameters until nothing qualifies except magic items") is the least persuasive. So unpersuasive, in fact, that although I started off the thread opposed to magic shops I actually find myself more opposed 26 pages later.

Boy, do I feel special.

 

[delericho]

I'm confused how the discussion shifted from magic shops to "magic items should feel special". Why is it WotC's job to make magic items feel special?

In a game where magic items are treasures to be found rarely, yes they should feel special. It is mostly the DM's job to see to this. That said, if there are things WotC can do to help it, they should.

Furthermore, an example of how "broken" rarity pricing is is that a Vicious Weapon is more rare than the mathematically superior +1 Sword. Well...isn't that exactly what you are asking for? The Vicious Weapon is more "special" in the way you are describing, thus it costs more. WTF are you actually asking for?

Mostly, I was just answering a specific question about the relative 'specialness' of two specific items.

However, if we're to accept that the Vicious weapon is more special than the useful-but-bland sword +1 then I want that Vicious weapon to show up more often, not less. Making it the rarer item just means that it's not going to show up, and the higher price means that a PC isn't going to buy it (if that option is available).

And ideally, I don't think that sword +1 should be in the game at all. All such items should be a sword +1 of something else, where that "something else" is not optional.

 

[jasper]

If every town has 10 axes that do an extra 1d6 damage to elves, fey, and plant monsters, then are those axes special?

....

Welcome strangers. Here is us axed con click shun!
#1 is from the 2018 winter olympics held in Panama.
#2 is the last jedi I done got that with a lard bucket of pop corn
#3 is from the Stranger Things collection
#4 is the Queen Beth 750th Birthday
etc.

 

[Lanefan]

Either admit to dismiss hardcover adventures as something other than the main experience for loads and loads of groups...

Can't comment on this other than to say not all groups use them and of those that do, not all use them as written.

... or explain how you find time to construct wizard's towers et al, when your employer dies in 77 days, as is the main plot of the latest hardcover.

If a multi-adventure plot is on a hard 77-day timeline which is known to the PCs then during the adventuring related to solving said plot there probably isn't going to be much downtime if any at all, for better or worse. Perhaps not the greatest bit of adventure design ever, that.

But any time on or after day 78 I can take my share of the treasury and build whatever I want with it. (hint: the campaign doesn't have to end just because the adventure book ran out of pages)

Lanefan

 

[Lanefan]

Then sell them!

But doesn't that go directly against 5e RAW, which says magic items cannot be bought or sold at all? This is the fundamental issue here; not that full-on magic shops can or can't exist but that the RAW don't agree with what would logically happen in the game world, in which the items would be sold or bartered or put up for auction.

You don't need a magic mart or pricing for that, though. If Lord Coolguy wants to sell his Ring of Djinni Summoning at auction, that's a great fun way to spend gold on a magic item. You as the DM can decide the value and how much the NPC parties are willing to spend and let the good times roll.

As I've said many times, there's a big difference between a "magic mart" where you can buy whatever you want (which isn't necessary) and the concept of trading or buying/selling random unwanted items between adventurers and other wealthy people or groups (which is necessary, as it reflects what would likely happen in most game worlds).

Lanefan