5E No Magic Shops!

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Of course they are magic shops.

they are official source materia in 2 official 5e campaign/modules.
Then I can walk into one of them and buy a suite of +3 plate mail, right? Because in a magic shop as they are being asked for in this thread, and in the magic item section of the DMG where it says they don't exist unless the DM wants them to, you can do that.

They are shops that stock exclusivley (3 of the stores) a limited set of magic items. That is the very definition of magic shop.
No. It's the definition of a potion shop, and a few other shops that happen to have a few magic items.


"You can't go into them and buy any magic item you want."
Yes you can....there is no restriction on any of the 4 magic stores placed on adventureres in Tomb of Anhilation or Dragon Heist.
If adventurers have the money they simply can walk in and purchase any of the listed items at any time they please.

Just b/c they have a limited range of items does not mean they are not magic stores....no store in the world (real or fantasy) is a one stop shop where you can pick up any item in existance.

The point is that there are no less then 4 stores in 5e (that we know of) that you can walk into and buy magic items straight of the shelf with no restrictions beyond gold that are official Source Material.

The only thing that changes this is the DMs discretion in any given campaign but OFFICIALY 4 magic stores DO exist.
If those two shops in Tomb and Dragon Heist exists, then they are optional and only exist if the DM wants them there. Here's the rule from page 135 of the DMG.

"Unless you decide your campaign works otherwise, most magic items are so rare that they aren't available for purchase." and "Doing so is rarely as simple as walking into a shop and selecting an item from the shelf." and "In a large city with an academy of magic or major temple, buying and selling magic items might be possible, at your discretion."

Modules have to be written for the most people, so they will include some minor shops with magic items, but those are still only there at the DMs discretion. They are not assumed to be there by 5e. Modules are not rules.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I'm playing it as written, thank-you-very-much:

DMG, page 136: "In your campaign, magic items might be prevalent enough that adventurers can buy and sell them. Magic items might be for sale in bazaars or auction houses in fantastical locations, such as... the planar metropolis of Sigil."
Think you are right and so are DMs in earlier editions who didnt have magic item shops... though the game did give those dms more tools and guidelines for it if you wanted it.
 

stav1369

Visitor
It's obviously evident that the poster doesn't mean no magic shops exists. He's using magic shop in a specific way that you are not - essentially you are arguing semantics (which you are right on the semantics part - but there's still no need to argue over it).

Essentially - All he is saying is that there are no shops where he can acquire most magic items his heart desires. That's true.
Its not clear from the first post as the heading is "no magic shops" but I agree it looks like the discussion has gone in that direction judging from replys of most ppl sighting previous editions and how they dealt with magic items.

So yea its a bit of both you are right.
 

stav1369

Visitor
If those two shops in Tomb and Dragon Heist exists, then they are optional and only exist if the DM wants them there. Here's the rule from page 135 of the DMG.
I am aware of the rule from the DMG, but rules in D&D are only rules until they are not rules.

Dragon heist and Tomb of anhilation came out after the DMG so they superseade the DMG or at least suppliment it expanding on previous rules.

We see this with a host of rules that are expanded or even changed in SCAG, XTGE and other campaign Modules that contradict the PHB or DMG.

Example:

Chapter 6: DMG To craft a magic item the DMG says the crafter must be a Spell caster.
"The character must also be a spellcaster with spell slots and must be able to cast any spells that the item can produce. Moreover, the character must meet a level minimum determined by the item’s rarity, as shown in the Crafting Magic Items table. For example, a 3rd-level character could create a wand of magic missiles (an uncommon item), as long as the character has spell slots and can cast magic missile. That same character could make a +1 weapon (another uncommon item), no particular spell required."


XTGE says does not require you to be a spell caster not cast the spell for the item you are trying to craft.
You just need "an appropriate" exotic material and be proficient in Arcana.

"To complete a magic item, a character also needs whatever tool proficiency is appropriate, as for crafting a nonmagical object, or proficiency in the Arcana skill."



There are many examples of rules being superseaded/changed or expanded on in later source books.

The fact that 4 magic stores have been put into the game after the DMG rules means those rules have been expanded on or altered from their first addition.

As a DM you always have the dicretion to adapt what rules or make up any rules you please but the rules in Dragon Heist and Tomb of anhilation are not "optional" by defualt they are only optional by DM as is every other rule in D&D.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I am aware of the rule from the DMG, but rules in D&D are only rules until they are not rules.
Yes, you can house rule them away.

Dragon heist and Tomb of anhilation came out after the DMG so they superseade the DMG or at least suppliment it expanding on previous rules.
Adventures are not rules. Now, sometimes they have a small section of new rules, but magic items shops have not been included in a rules section in any adventure to date.

We see this with a host of rules that are expanded or even changed in SCAG, XTGE and other campaign Modules that contradict the PHB or DMG.

Example:

Chapter 6: DMG To craft a magic item the DMG says the crafter must be a Spell caster.
"The character must also be a spellcaster with spell slots and must be able to cast any spells that the item can produce. Moreover, the character must meet a level minimum determined by the item’s rarity, as shown in the Crafting Magic Items table. For example, a 3rd-level character could create a wand of magic missiles (an uncommon item), as long as the character has spell slots and can cast magic missile. That same character could make a +1 weapon (another uncommon item), no particular spell required."


XTGE says does not require you to be a spell caster not cast the spell for the item you are trying to craft.
You just need "an appropriate" exotic material and be proficient in Arcana.
Um, yes. New rule books can alter rules. Adventures are not rules, though, and the inclusion of magic item shops in those adventures does not contradict any rule. If an adventure includes a magic shop, that's the DM who created that adventure opting to include a magic shop per the page 135 DMG rule. It does not change that DMG rule, nor does it require me to opt into the shop. I can use the same rule he did and just nix the shop.

There are many examples of rules being superseaded/changed or expanded on in later source books.

The fact that 4 magic stores have been put into the game after the DMG rules means those rules have been expanded on or altered from their first addition.
Except not. It just means that the DM looked at page 135 of the DMG and used that rule to place a shop at his discretion. His discretion to engage that rule does not create a new rule.
 

Beleriphon

Totally Awesome Pirate Brain
I loathe most magic item shops. I don't mind if the PCs hunt down a specific individual or collector, as an adventure unto itself, who might--might--trade for something. And I'm willing to make exceptions for, say, Sigil or the City of Brass. But otherwise? No thank you.

I do, however, wish there was more for PCs to spend gold on. Just not magic items.
For Sigil its big enough that I can imagine a fiend sitting a market yelling... "Jink for Holy Avengers, come get a genuine Holy Avenger, fresh of the corpse of a stupid paladin we just killed yesterday."
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Didn't 4e have the rule where players could get whatever magic item they asked for at a certain level, so long as it was level appropriate?
LOL its called a wish list not a must get list, operative word "could" is not would however since the items are fairly well balanced and low impact you can actually give them ones up to about 4 levels higher without problems.

A player character who knows the ritual for it could with sufficient funds or the right ingredients create various generic (and lets be honest bland) ones of their level or below. Additional the players handbook mentioned unique items for which you need to do research or go on quests just to figure out what they do. No detect magic doesn't cover such items and neither does disenchant nor could a player expect to be able to make one.

They added rarity rules to address a problem that really isn't a problem virtually ever and did it rather arbitrarily but that restricted what items your character could just create for themselves beyond the above.

I cannot imagine the players wanting generic ones in comparison to some of the ones I make though.

Of course the artifacts rules are seriously cool.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
While going on quests for magic items for specific items is a trope SO is heroes just stumbling upon fated weapons they were simply meant to have. Making magic items is also in a lot of fantasy (insert ingredient quests sometimes)... I am sure magic shops have a place too and having rules that cover it is useful.
 

Nebulous

Adventurer
LOL its called a wish list not a must get list, operative word "could" is not would however since the items are fairly well balanced and low impact you can actually give them ones up to about 4 levels higher without problems.

A player character who knows the ritual for it could with sufficient funds or the right ingredients create various generic (and lets be honest bland) ones of their level or below. Additional the players handbook mentioned unique items for which you need to do research or go on quests just to figure out what they do. No detect magic doesn't cover such items and neither does disenchant nor could a player expect to be able to make one.

They added rarity rules to address a problem that really isn't a problem virtually ever and did it rather arbitrarily but that restricted what items your character could just create for themselves beyond the above.

I cannot imagine the players wanting generic ones in comparison to some of the ones I make though.

Of course the artifacts rules are seriously cool.
Ok, i couldn't remember clearly, 4e was a long time ago and I quit running it! I do remember the magic items seemed rather bland though and paled in comparison to class abilities and spells.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Ok, i couldn't remember clearly, 4e was a long time ago and I quit running it! I do remember the magic items seemed rather bland though and paled in comparison to class abilities and spells.
The class abilities all felt tuned to work together to produce a fighting style... if you worked at it something like that could be done for item enchantments though there could definitely be thematic concepts supported by particular items such as one that gave you power over your bloodied status (great both in flavor and function for a longtooth shifter of mine) or which could be conversely used to instant bloody an enemy even if they still had most of their hit points which usefully integrates with a lot of powers. 5e not having bloodied status nor things that gear off of it, sigh.
 
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Hussar

Legend
Funny how experiences differ. My 4e rogue believed that he was touched by a god (Kord) and that he was a prophet of Kord. He had a life stealing dagger (granted you x temp hp if you killed a target) and he consecrated all his kills to Kord. :D He wasn't really running on all 8 cylinders. :D "Souls for Kord" was a great line. But, that dagger became a major focus point (as well as a faintly magic spoon that the character claimed Kord used to eat the mushroom soup where he had met the god) of the character.

In our 4e Dark Sun game, the Crown of Whispers was a major factor in the character's life. Searching for it took up like 10 levels. It was great.

To me, it's all in what you make of it.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Funny how experiences differ. My 4e rogue believed that he was touched by a god (Kord) and that he was a prophet of Kord. He had a life stealing dagger (granted you x temp hp if you killed a target) and he consecrated all his kills to Kord. :D He wasn't really running on all 8 cylinders. :D "Souls for Kord" was a great line. But, that dagger became a major focus point (as well as a faintly magic spoon that the character claimed Kord used to eat the mushroom soup where he had met the god) of the character.

In our 4e Dark Sun game, the Crown of ((Forgetting the name)) was a major factor in the character's life. Searching for it took up like 10 levels. It was great.

To me, it's all in what you make of it.
Story is hugiferous and kind of external to the system too in most cases.

I do remember item-sets that came along later in the game but I haven't used one of those yet, but its interesting mechanically too.
 

Hussar

Legend
Heh. One of the most unfortunate things about 4e is a LOT of the really interesting stuff that came out for 4e came out after so many folks had left. Had they led with a lot of the stuff, they would have been much better off. :(
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
5e would have greatly benefited from the bloodied status and player and monster abilities that keyed off it. I like 5e but it was oversimplified in my opinion.
I certainly find some of it appealing some of it in odd places Attunement is better than item slots...

I actually liked 4es use of inherent bonus rule to enable low magic campaigns. I just do not think assuming they do not exist then saying dm fix it if you actually use magic items, is realistic adventure design principle.
 

stav1369

Visitor
Yes, you can house rule them away.



Adventures are not rules. Now, sometimes they have a small section of new rules, but magic items shops have not been included in a rules section in any adventure to date.



Um, yes. New rule books can alter rules. Adventures are not rules, though, and the inclusion of magic item shops in those adventures does not contradict any rule. If an adventure includes a magic shop, that's the DM who created that adventure opting to include a magic shop per the page 135 DMG rule. It does not change that DMG rule, nor does it require me to opt into the shop. I can use the same rule he did and just nix the shop.



Except not. It just means that the DM looked at page 135 of the DMG and used that rule to place a shop at his discretion. His discretion to engage that rule does not create a new rule.
I kind of disagree about official modules/campaigns not being rules (b/c they are created by official developers which translates to Intention of rules in DMG PHB XTGE etc) but the beauty of the game is it prob does not matter b/c its all DM discretion anyway so both our opinions are valid in that context.

I treat them like Errata.

Kind of like many players/DMs refer to Sage advice to get the intent of rules from official developers.

Imo the way I run my games as DM is I draw from the modues/campaign and use them as precedence for my rulings.

So for "magic stores" I have the following methedology.

Magic Stores


Large city/Metropolis 25,000+

In larger cities and metropolis' like Waterdeep, Suzail, Baldurs gate etc there will probably be number of diffrent
magic stores like those that can be found in Troll Skull alley.

Corellon’s Crown Fala’s Potions stocks magic potions while Book Wyrm’s Treasure sells spell scrolls.

Adventureres will probably also be able to find a small amount of stores that sell common and uncommon level items. (maybe 6-12 stores in total depending on size of city/metropolis)
Rare and above magic items are typicaly not for sale at magic stores (although adventurers may get lucky) as these are only available at Wizarding academies, Temples, Exclusive auctions and factions (Lords alliance, Harpers etc) and usually require services rather then currency to purchase.
Magic stores may attract thieves and opportunists.
Diffrent magic stores usually specialise in diffrent items. Potions, Spellscrolls (see above), weapons, jewlery or other utility items. They usually have herbalist and Alchemical services as well.
Cities 12,000-25,000

In Smaller cities like there is usually only one or two stores that deal in very limited magic items like in Port Nyanzaru (12,000 population)
Ekene-Afa sells +1 daggers, Shield and Yklwa's only
Wakanga O'tamu sells common/uncommon potions and spells scrolss of 1st and snd circle only.
Towns 1000-12,000

For Town sized settlements adventureres may find One magic store of some type as well as herbalist/alchemist (usually a 2 in one store) depending on the size of the town.
Most small towns will not have any.

Villages 400-1000 population
Villages may have a herbalist but will only very rarley have magic store or a merchant that might peddle on occasions withs aid items.

 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I kind of disagree about official modules/campaigns not being rules (b/c they are created by official developers which translates to Intention of rules in DMG PHB XTGE etc) but the beauty of the game is it prob does not matter b/c its all DM discretion anyway so both our opinions are valid in that context.
They are created no differently than I create my adventures. Being "official" doesn't alter that.

I treat them like Errata.
That's your prerogative. They aren't to anyone else who doesn't also opt into that, though. You are effectively house ruling modules and making them rules. That's cool for your game, but has no bearing on mine or anyone else's.

I cut out how you do item sales, because it wasn't relevant to whether or not the game has been altered to include them. I also have occasional magic item sales in my games. I just don't have dedicated stores usually.
 

Hussar

Legend
Not sure I buy that [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], since the last two modules I bought - Dragon Heist and Ghosts of Saltmarsh include rather lengthy rules additions. GoS contains all the rules needed for running naval combat, for example. So, it's not like modules are not a source of mechanics. Traditionally, as well, in D&D, modules have often served as the source for new mechanics or for adjustments of existing mechanics.

But, it does kinda fly in the face of "D&D doesn't have magic shops" when several D&D modules published by WotC HAS magic shops. And, let's not forget, that buying magic items is now a downtime activity, as per Xanathar's. So, again, it's not like the concept is foreign to the game or limited to modules.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Not sure I buy that @Maxperson, since the last two modules I bought - Dragon Heist and Ghosts of Saltmarsh include rather lengthy rules additions.
Right. Some modules explicitly add some rules. THOSE are rules, but the rest of the story is just adventure creation per the DMG.

GoS contains all the rules needed for running naval combat, for example. So, it's not like modules are not a source of mechanics. Traditionally, as well, in D&D, modules have often served as the source for new mechanics or for adjustments of existing mechanics.
Sure, in highly limited amounts. The inclusion of naval combat rules doesn't suddenly mean that just because the module including(making this up since I've never seen it) 2 ogres, that the rules of D&D is now that 2 ogres have to be in adventures as a rule.

But, it does kinda fly in the face of "D&D doesn't have magic shops" when several D&D modules published by WotC HAS magic shops. And, let's not forget, that buying magic items is now a downtime activity, as per Xanathar's. So, again, it's not like the concept is foreign to the game or limited to modules.
5e has no such rule, though. The rule is, "D&D doesn't have magic shops unless the DM decides to include them." In the case of the modules, the DM writing it has opted to include it per the 5e DMG rule. What the inclusion doesn't do, though, no matter how people in this thread might wish that it did, is to make magic shops the baseline in 5e as some sort of new rule.
 

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