No More 15-Minute Adventuring Day: Campsites

[Stormonu]

I think the players should have some say in when and where they can rest (and I say this as a DM). At the same time, I think there should be some risk-reward process for taking the time to rest.

Of course, the biggest risk is probably Wandering Monsters. One of the problems with 3E & 4E is not so much that you can't introduce wandering monsters, but that they can upset a dungeon carefully balanced for the PCs leveling at a particular point. If the wandering monsters grant XP and/or treasure, it can throw off the leveling process. If XP wasn't done on a per monster basis, but instead at reaching certain "points" along the adventure, this wouldn't be as much a problem (though treasure still might).

Also, if the DM were given options to restock/resupply the bad guys when PCs rest, this could also be a balancing factor. If this options are presented at the start of the adventure for the DM, or presented and discussed in the DMG, it would become a balancing factor.

Some examples:

1) One or more rooms occupants are restocked with reinforcements
2) The complex goes on alert; chances of surprise are lowered and NPCs are prebuffed in preparation for the PCs
3) The bad guys call in some heavy artillery or the clearing of an area allows a more powerful monster to move in
4) Time closes in on preparations the bad guys have made, possibly making them stronger
5) Traps, barriers or other obstacles have been put in place to impede the character's progess

 

[The Shaman]

So really, the way to end the 15-minute adventuring day is not to come up with *more* ideas to force things, but best to just go back to the early idea that not every fight has to be a full-force challenge. Players/PCs falling to the 15-minute adventuring day is not the game's fault, it's the DM's fault -- the DM trains Players to use that tactic.

I haven't played enough 3e to experience this first-hand - and when I did play 3e, I ran it the same way I ran 1e AD&D, very much like the first example - but, "[N]ot every fight has to be a full-force challenge," should be in every referee's quiver.

 

[IronWolf]

Not a big fan of this idea. I don't like the idea of the DM telling the players when they can rest. The DM describes the world around the players. The players decide within that realm when they want to rest or when they should rest.

Meaning we shouldn't try and make it easier on a DM by providing them with ways in which to defeat common bugaboos?

Not sure how common it is. I mean you certainly hear about this, but in actual play I rarely see it. This includes my home game, organized play games I participate in at cons and even numerous PbP games. Shoot, in one recent game we did have a character in the party who was wanting to rest, the rest of us in the party said, nope - we are continuing on.

I mean, if the 15-minute-adventuring-day isn't a problem for you, it's not a big deal, but I think that something is a little lost when the players control their own resource recharging, especially without a built-in cost. The tension of "we might run out of spells/potions/rations/whatever!" is lost, and retreat becomes a good play strategy, rather than a last resort.

There are costs as several posters have described. The environment is reactive, the world doesn't stop just because the characters opted for a rest. Sometimes it is perfectly fine to rest, there will be no repercussion. Other times, the resting will quite possibly make things more difficult for the party. If you run games this way the players actually have a decision to make that they know will have ramifications.

By running in these reactive environments the tension of running out of spells, potions, hit points, etc is not lost.

 

[Wiseblood]

I have used the 15 minute day. It is not the norm. It was a consequence of a day poorly begun. Our tactics, dice rolls or estimates about enemy forces put us in dire straits.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So really, the way to end the 15-minute adventuring day is not to come up with *more* ideas to force things, but best to just go back to the early idea that not every fight has to be a full-force challenge. Players/PCs falling to the 15-minute adventuring day is not the game's fault, it's the DM's fault -- the DM trains Players to use that tactic.

I'll just say this- it may be next to impossible to retrain 15 Minute Men.

 

[arscott]

Scheduled rest areas are, as many posters have pointed out, an awkward solution that sacrifices story concerns for the sake of game rules and game balance.

But to all those people who have suggested that the problem is solved by wandering monsters and threat escalation--well, that's also a solution that sacrifices story concerns for the sake of game rules and game balance.

And unlike the "rest area" idea, most of the "punish the players ideas" are huge time sinks. Wandering monsters and re-filled rooms are just extra combats that do nothing to advance progress through the adventure. They're rarely interesting fights: The wandering monster is off a table and the resting party chooses the terrain, making it hard for the GM to prep for an interesting encounter, whereas the re-stocked room is repetitive: similar creatures re-fill the exact same combat spaces. And there can't be much that makes them interesting from a plot perspective, because they're likely to not happen in the first place.

 

[arscott]

Maybe looking to punish players for resting early or constraining player choice about when to rest aren't really the best uses of incentives. Players have goods reasons to stop when they do, and hitting them with wandering monsters doesn't really change the incentives (if you'll need combat resources to deal with wandering monsters, that's more reason to conserve and renew them, not less).

Instead, why not a mechanical reward for continuing on? Look at the scoring in Rhythm games like guitar hero. The longer a player goes without missing notes, the more points he scores for each note he hits.

Carry that into D&D. Perhaps the first combat of the day provides normal XP, but the second provides an extra 20% xp, the third provides an extra 40%, and so forth. Or perhaps players get an action point after their first encounter, two after the second, etc.

That way, players continue to adventure because they want to, not because they're forced to.

 

[Leatherhead]

Sometimes I wonder if people aren't trying to tackle this "problem" from the wrong direction.

If the players are getting too hung up on using daily resources, why not remove daily resources from the game?

 

[IronWolf]

But to all those people who have suggested that the problem is solved by wandering monsters and threat escalation--well, that's also a solution that sacrifices story concerns for the sake of game rules and game balance.

I disagree. First, a GM does not do this to punish the characters. He does it help build verisimilitude into the world. As a result, with the world always moving, the characters have to think and consider their consequences for choosing to rest after every encounter.

In some cases, resting fits in with the current events and there is not a consequence of any significance for choosing to rest. Kingmaker is a good example of this (and possibly one of its cons). During the exploration phase the characters are going to rest after nearly every encounter. Sure there will be the occasional wandering monster (which comes from a terrain appropriate table and fits with the environ), but not every time. So here is a case where the rest doesn't really have a major consequence for the characters.

Other times rest will have consequences. It doesn't have to be increasing monster numbers, though it might mean some areas get emptied or reduced and other numbers added to as reinforcements are moved around. It does mean the critters are going to be much more alert and at attentions. It will likely mean smarter tactics by the enemy as they are aware and have now had time to organize. More traps and ambushes and sorts. So don't think of it as adding more monsters or even a lot of wandering monsters (though it might be a patrol actively looking for the resting party), think of it as a chance to have more interesting tactics.

 

[IronWolf]

If the players are getting too hung up on using daily resources, why not remove daily resources from the game?

Likely because that would mean removing core elements like spells and certain special abilities.