No more double empowered fireballs!!

[Hypersmurf]

As for heighten magic metamagic feat, could you not use it to alter an already affected by metamagic feats spell so that it actually casts a double empowered fireball as a 7th level spell? Seeing as you set the level of the spell and if you don't believe that heighten spell adds +1 to the spell level everytime, one could just alter it in this way, unless this has been answered in some FAQ and I missed it.

From memory, they FAQ'd it to say "Apply Heighten before any other Metamagic Feat".

But a Double-Empowered Fireball is a 3rd level spell that takes up a slot 4 levels higher. A Double-Empowered Fireball Heightened to 7th level is a 7th level spell that takes up a slot 4 levels higher - ie, an 11th level slot.

-Hyp.

 

[Thresher]

Oh, another 3.5 change I'll be ignoring.

 

[Fenes 2]

I like this change.

 

[Staffan]

Double empowered fireballs are a bad example anyway as fireball is overpowered.

It is? I think it's the higher-level blast spells that are underpowered, actually. I'd like to see higher-level blast spells do more than having a bigger damage cap - maybe 1d8/level for 5th level spells, 1d10/level for 7th level and 1d12/level for 9th level spells. Either that, or blast spells should have an additional damage of 1d6/spell level (so fireball would do a total of 3+level d6, and cone of cold would do 5+level d6).

I've ranted about this before, but I think blast spells got inherently nerfed in 3e with the general increase in the number of hp (due to bigger HD and more Con bonuses).

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Looks like choosing between maximize and empower is no longer the no-brainer. I like that.

 

[drnuncheon]

Eh. It'll be nice to have some official clarity, but as I told the sorcerer in my game (who just took Empower): I think the problem with empower lies more in Improved Metamagic and other slot-lowering feats than it does in stacking Empower.

18th level caster, Int +6, no other save DC increases
Empowered x3 Fireball - 25d6 fire damage in a 20' radius, save DC 19
Meteor Swarm - 24d6 fire damage in a blast pattern, save DC 25 (or 24d6 to one target, no save)

...and Meteor Swarm is thought of as 'underpowered'. That low save DC is going to kill the effectiveness of the empowered fireball vs. high level creatures unless you're pumping your save DCs. The creatures with good Reflex saves will laugh it off, and the ones with poor Reflex saves look like they'll still be saving half the time (based on my totally unscientific comparison of looking up a couple of CR18 foes in MM and FF.)

J

 

[aurellius]

Exactly...the problem with empower was improved metamagic.


Pretty much everything they seem to be doing with magic is because of non core things that break the system.




Marcus

 

[Bauglir]

Double empowered fireballs are a bad example anyway as fireball is overpowered. Compared to the 5th level spell cone of cold, a single empowered fireball will do more damage until 15th level, and then it still breaks even. The real problem is the horrible scaling of damage spells in D&D.

Fireball is not overpowered. Taking average damage on each of an empowered fireball, and a cone of cold through several levels, and reducing the fireball damage by 5% to represent the 2 points lower save:

Level-Fireball-Cone of Cold

9-[44.8875]-[31.5]
10-[49.875]-[35]
11-[49.875]-[38.5]
12-[49.875]-[42]
13-[49.875]-[45.5]
14-[49.875]-[49]
15-[49.875]-[52.5]

So we see that the fireball does consistently more than the cone of cold, until level 15 where it is surpassed. As it should do; to cast an empowered spell costs a spell slot AND a feat - it should be better than something that just costs a spell slot.

Now lets look at the more relevant double empowered scenario. i.e. Double Emp fireball vs Emp Cone of Cold

Level-Fireball-Cone of Cold

13-[66.5]-[68.25]
14-[66.5]-[73.5]
15-[66.5]-[78.75]

The single-empowered Cone of Cold is ALWAYS better.

Stacking empowers is not the least bit overpowered for damage spells. The real abuse scenario was in the buffs, and that has been eliminated. I see no reason for this change at all.

 

[Moon_Goddess]

Makes them Epic Level, 16th and 17th level spell slots useless don't it....

 

[taliesin52]

Offhand, I got to thinking about Empower Spell and Fireball.


Fireball states the maximum damage caused is 10d6. This part of the spell does not appear to be variable. Thus, why would the ES feat work at all? Sure it'd give you Xd6*1.5 more damage but why would the maximum part change?

I know I've used Empowered Fireballs before, but this just occured to me and I can't figure out why it never came up before.