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[Votan]

Is that really a weakness of the game system, though? Would you really want your high-level Jedi Master to be killable in one hit? Would you have preferred it if Saga had kept the whole Wounds/Vitality mechanic?

It is an issue when key scenes in the movies can't be replicated. Some of the ideas that the SWSE rules had are really good. But the battle with Darth Sidious is a really good test case for whether the rules can follow the movies.

Now, to be fair, there is a lot of variability here. Obi-Wan fought Jango Fett for ages whereas Mace Windu killed him almost as an afterthought. So it seems like the issue is that very high level characters should be able to do really nasty things to lower level characters. As most people agree that Darth Sidious is not a low level character, this seems to be the best way to think about it.

 

[billd91]

So you can't do some of the exact things that happen in the movies? Big deal. If you allowed them, like the earlier versions of d20 Star Wars did with critical hits going to WP, PCs are pretty vulnerable to them. I'd even say more vulnerable than any single NPC because PCs usually get into a lot more fights.

Saga decided to move the balance to the side of PC playability, a gamist concern, and I don't really have a beef with that. Damage values are still high enough with energy weapons and level-based bonuses that PC risk is still there for significant fights. And that's fine with me.

 

[pukunui]

It is an issue when key scenes in the movies can't be replicated. Some of the ideas that the SWSE rules had are really good. But the battle with Darth Sidious is a really good test case for whether the rules can follow the movies.

I don't think that scene's a very good test case for it at all. I think that's a rather extreme example. Saga does a pretty good job of replicating the movies. Does it make it so that you can replicate every single scene in all six movies? No. But what game system can do that? I haven't played WEG's d6 RPG or WotC's earlier OCR/RCR version, but from what I've heard, they're not able to perfectly replicate the movies either. And I don't really regard that as a weakness. So long as the game retains the flavor and feel of Star Wars, I'm OK with not being able to do everything I see the characters in the films doing.

As most people agree that Darth Sidious is not a low level character, this seems to be the best way to think about it.

I would actually be inclined to put Sidious above the 20 level limit. If you can have CL 30 starships, why not CL 30 Sith Lords? Even D&D 4e has official monsters that are above its 30 level limit for PCs. I bet if you could make Sidious a level 30 or 35 character, he would be able to take out three Jedi Masters with one attack. Sure, in this instance, it wouldn't be RAW, but does that really matter? The game's rules are really just meant to be guidelines, after all ...

 

[wingsandsword]

Is that really a weakness of the game system, though? Would you really want your high-level Jedi Master to be killable in one hit? Would you have preferred it if Saga had kept the whole Wounds/Vitality mechanic?

Generally, I like SWSE.

The Duel with Sidious was the one place where it is hard to simulate the movies using the RAW. In every prior SWRPG, it was at least theoretically possible to have that scene happen.

In the D6 RPG, you could kill 3 Jedi Masters in one round. . .with win-the-lottery level lucky strikes (and almost certainly spending a Force Point, which was a much bigger deal in d6 than d20) no PC would ever get but it was mathematically possible.

In OCR and RCR d20, with the right feats and right critical hits and damage it could happen, but again, don't count on it ever really happening in a game.

I know SWSE is meant to be more gamist and more "playable", and losing a PC to one lucky critical hit can really suck. I saw a 7th level PC in a d20 game die outright from a stray blaster bolt from a stormtrooper due to a critical hit with near-max damage. I had a PC in a d6 SWRPG game die in one hit from a blaster pistol that kept open-ending on the Wild Die and a lousy Strength roll to resist (and craptastic Character Point bonus die rolls thrown in).

I like the idea that everything should be at least theoretically imitable by the rules, and that scene does bug me a little, but since for actually playing the game SWSE works so well I roll on with it.

. . .as for Mace Windu and the zillion Battle Droids, I figured that wasn't the literal truth of it but instead the tall tale of Jedi awesomeness that that little kid told his friends and spread around as the Legend of Mace Windu, sort of an "Unreliable Narrator" scenario since at the end we see it was all witnessed by a little kid in awe of the Jedi Master.

 

[ourchair]

My completely subjective impression is that not as many Star Wars fans were playing the RPG as they ought to. (I know that in this day and age, everyone is a Star Wars fan, but you know what I mean.)

Demand for the books is high, yes, but their distribution network overseas might be lacking because in most other countries you have to make a special order for it at your local bookstore or FNGS.

Wizards paid an arm and a leg for the license, but didn't nearly get as much return as they thought they would or push out as much content as they ought to.

 

[pukunui]

The Duel with Sidious was the one place where it is hard to simulate the movies using the RAW. In every prior SWRPG, it was at least theoretically possible to have that scene happen.

While it may be the only scene that actually can't be replicated, it's not the only scene that is problematic. As I pointed out earlier, I don't think you should have to spend a Destiny Point to emulate Obi-Wan's big vertical leap in The Phantom Menace or Luke's in The Empire Strikes Back. But at least with that bit of errata, those scenes are now possible ...

In the D6 RPG, you could kill 3 Jedi Masters in one round. . .with win-the-lottery level lucky strikes (and almost certainly spending a Force Point, which was a much bigger deal in d6 than d20) no PC would ever get but it was mathematically possible.

In OCR and RCR d20, with the right feats and right critical hits and damage it could happen, but again, don't count on it ever really happening in a game.

I know SWSE is meant to be more gamist and more "playable", and losing a PC to one lucky critical hit can really suck. I saw a 7th level PC in a d20 game die outright from a stray blaster bolt from a stormtrooper due to a critical hit with near-max damage. I had a PC in a d6 SWRPG game die in one hit from a blaster pistol that kept open-ending on the Wild Die and a lousy Strength roll to resist (and craptastic Character Point bonus die rolls thrown in).

While that amount of "swinginess" might make for more "realistic" gameplay, it's pretty obvious that WotC, at least, no longer regards "realism" (or simulationism, if you prefer) as a desirable end-goal for RPGs.

I like the idea that everything should be at least theoretically imitable by the rules, and that scene does bug me a little, but since for actually playing the game SWSE works so well I roll on with it.

Doesn't really bother me that much. I mean, who really wants to emulate that scene in an RPG anyway? Assuming that Mace and the other three Jedi Masters would be PCs and Sidious would be under my control as GM, then I'd be all but TPKing the party in one round. Even if I could legally get away with it in the rules, I'm sure my players would still cry foul (or at least unfair), and they'd probably be right, too ...

. . .as for Mace Windu and the zillion Battle Droids, I figured that wasn't the literal truth of it but instead the tall tale of Jedi awesomeness that that little kid told his friends and spread around as the Legend of Mace Windu, sort of an "Unreliable Narrator" scenario since at the end we see it was all witnessed by a little kid in awe of the Jedi Master.

Turns out that's not the scene pawsplay was referring to. He was talking about the arena battle near the end of Attack of the Clones. I'll have to watch that scene again because I'm not sure what part he's actually got a problem with. I will admit that the Jedi carve through more battle droids than might be possible in a d20 combat round more than once in the prequel films, though.

 

[wingsandsword]

Doesn't really bother me that much. I mean, who really wants to emulate that scene in an RPG anyway? Assuming that Mace and the other three Jedi Masters would be PCs and Sidious would be under my control as GM, then I'd be all but TPKing the party in one round. Even if I could legally get away with it in the rules, I'm sure my players would still cry foul (or at least unfair), and they'd probably be right, too ...

Spin it around.

What if it was a 20th level Jedi Master PC (since Palpatine is supposed to be 20th level, personally I figure he's one of the half-dozen characters that could honestly be epic level in Star Wars), and he was being confronted while alone by four Sith Lords? If there was a way for one character to pose a imminent mortal threat to four attackers, a PC would want to do it, and could look at this scene as a precedent.

Not to mention what if it was a Dark Side campaign, WotC even made a whole sourcebook about that in 2001, with encouragements to play darksiders. A PC Sith Lord sure as heck would want to be able to take on 4 Jedi Masters at once if he had to.

I'm not asking for it to be likely, but that it can't be done without GM handwaving and plot fiat bugs me, especially since Star Wars RPGs have been traditionally good at emulating every detail of what happens canonically (even if some things would be unlikely). The old D6 RPG even made a point of including with every sourcebook for every new comic series or novel (which for several years they produced a new companion sourcebook for every single novel or comic plot arc) new force powers for everything force users did, often quoting in the description word-for-word the passage in the book as flavor text.

 

[pukunui]

Knowing that I'm just performing necromancy on a dead horse so that I can beat it to death again, I thought I'd just pop back in here to post that I've recently discovered that you can replicate the Palps vs the Jedi Masters scene from Episode III using the SWSE rules. All you need is enough Destiny Points and stuff like the Triple Crit feat. Here's how it works:

Palptine charges Saesee Tiin and uses a Destiny Point to auto-crit (dealing triple damage with his lightsaber - and undoubtedly rolling very well on his damage dice in the process). He then spends another Destiny Point to act again, attacking both Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto with Double Attack, spending two more Destiny Points to auto-crit on both of them as well (again rolling well for damage, which is again tripled). While Kolar goes down, Fisto survives the initial attack, but on the following round, Palpatine rolls a natural 20 and crits him again, taking him out.

Bear in mind that there are no restrictions on the number of Destiny Points you can spend in one round other than to change your initiative order (which can only be done once per round post-errata).

Now, you can certainly make a case for Palpatine's damage output not being high enough to take out the Jedi Masters in one hit, even with the Triple Crit feat. If you use the published stats for Palpatine, Tiin and Fisto (Kolar was never officially statted for SWSE), that's exactly the problem. Palpatine can do 2d8+10x3 on a critical hit. The maximum is 78. Fisto has 122 hp, while Tiin has 144.

However, nowhere does it say you have to use the "official" statblocks. Most of them are junk anyway. You could make Palpatine a bit tougher, or the Jedi Masters a bit weaker (perhaps by giving them some nonheroic levels rather than all heroic levels, which would give them fewer hit points; you could also give Tiin, Kolar and Fisto no Destiny Points to represent that they'd exhausted themselves during the Clone Wars; who knows, maybe they've even got some persistent condition track penalties as well) and still represent that scene using RAW.

And thus, spinning it around, you could have a single 20th level Jedi Master take out a gaggle of Sith Lords each in one hit using the same Triple Crit + Destiny Points + whatever else you can think of that might help combo.

So it can be done without any GM handwaving or plot fiat. All it would require is that the characters in question be built in such a way as to make it possible, but that can be done by staying well within the RAW (if not with the exact official SWSE statblocks for those given characters).

EDIT: Re-reading some of the responses on the topic above, it seems to me like some people's issue has less to do with being unable to replicate certain scenes using the SWSE rules in general but rather being unable to replicate them using the official statblocks for certain movie characters. I'll admit that you can't replicate certain scenes using the official statblocks, but as I said before, most of those statblocks are a waste of space anyway. It is entirely possible to build entirely RAW versions of the movie characters that can be used to replicate those scenes without resorting to house rules or handwaving of any kind.

Just sayin' ...

 

[Stormonu]

I'm pretty sure this is the case.

I was replying to the comment that WotC should use their SAGA rules to produce a space-opera RPG that isn't Star Wars, so they don't have to pay a licensing fee. And my reply was from WotC's perspective... that the number of people who would play or be interested in a non-Star Wars space-opera game would not be nearly enough for them to justify spending their money, staff, and and years of development time to produce it. You believe it's a 'maybe'... I believe it's a 'no chance'. Simply for the fact that of all the genres they could produce a new game for (either with the SAGA rules or the 4e mechanics), why they would choose the one that they had already spend years producing product for (even if they shaved the Lucaswrited names off everything)? It makes absolutely no financial sense for WotC to do so (considering that if people really wanted to use the SAGA rules for a non-Star Wars space-opera game, they could just use the mechanics as-is and houserule / re-fluff things as needed).

Using SAGA for a hard sci-fi or cyberpunk game makes more sense than reproducing a 'generic space-opera'.

I believe this to be incorrect. They could bite into the nostalgia of Star Frontiers and Star Drive - and had they the time to prepare even Gamma World.

Like D&D, they could produce the SAGA system as a generic interpretation of Space Opera Sci Fi. They could not only include Star Wars-like content, but also Starship Troopers-type game (possibly allowing for a Starcraft-like game, which they did with Alternity or allowing an alternative access to GW's 40K universe sort of setup without being so grim-dark). There are also other variations beyond Star Wars they could incorporate into the worldview - elements of Alien, Matrix, Battletech/Mecha, Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Battlestar Galactica, Babylon 5, Star Trek, etc. that would not fit in a straight Star Wars ruleset but would appeal as a more generic "kitchen sink" sort of sci fi setting.

Further, they would likely reach a point where not only have the reproduced the "base rules" of SWSE, but they can further expand upon it in ways they couldn't do through the Lucas license. Further, at some point people will have difficulty buying into the SWSE game as the books become somewhat rarer and updated/reprinted rules will make it possible for those who have the rules to continue to keep interest and draw in "new blood".

There is a lot of potential in the ruleset they have; I think their best bet would be to start with an Essentials like set - perhaps a remake of Star Frontiers/Star Drive that introduces new players to the SAGA rules and then expanding to a full-blown new ruleset.

 

[pukunui]

Stormonu: That's pretty much what Gary Sarli, SWSE's lead designer, is doing with his e20: System Evolved game.