No! No! Baaaaaaad Marvel Comics!

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Actually, I'm judging a movie from a sample of its actual content, not the mere cover art & title of the proverbial book. Up until I saw the power-switch clips, I was actually looking forward to seeing this movie.

And I'll ask you the same question I asked Tarthalion above: how much info do you need before you decide not to watch a movie or read a particular book?

I think the important difference here is between deciding NOT to see something because you don't think you'll like it(which is perfectly find and we all do it), and talking about how bad something is without having seen it. A clip, or short except doesn't qualify for the latter...as you may very well like every single other part of the movie except that one and you'll never nkow.

So saying you don't think you like it is fine. But going on for pages and pages swearing this and that about a movie you've not seen is something completely different.

 

[John Crichton]

Actually, I'm judging a movie from a sample of its actual content, not the mere cover art & title of the proverbial book. Up until I saw the power-switch clips, I was actually looking forward to seeing this movie.

Okay, then add the back-cover to the equation if that makes you feel better. It's still the same thing. You're basing it on a sampling without context. Which basically amounts to judging a book by its cover.

And I'll ask you the same question I asked Tarthalion above: how much info do you need before you decide not to watch a movie or read a particular book?

Much, much more than a trailer or cover. Neither would stop me from seeing something, but it might convince me to see something that I didn't know about before. If I want to see something, I'm doing it regardless of what the ad department showed me. I put stock in reviews from people I know.

A trailer or book cover is worth very little to me as it's very hard to show context properly.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think the important difference here is between deciding NOT to see something because you don't think you'll like it(which is perfectly find and we all do it), and talking about how bad something is without having seen it.

I saw a portion of its content and deemed it to be pretty bad. I decided to not see the movie based on that content. I decided to share my decision and its basis.

I've even illustrated why the way it was written was inferior to many other potential plot formulations.

A clip, or short except doesn't qualify for the latter...as you may very well like every single other part of the movie except that one and you'll never nkow.

Same question for you as for Tarthalion & John Crichton.

So saying you don't think you like it is fine. But going on for pages and pages swearing this and that about a movie you've not seen is something completely different.

This thread has gone on for as long as it has because:

1) People are criticizing my decision making process re: this film because it is based on a sample rather than the whole. I feel compelled to defend my decision making process which is actually pretty normal for human beings...which is why I keep asking people to describe their decision making processes about what entertainment options they choose.

2) People are criticizing me for being hypercritical. That may be so, but since I believe that genre films can be just as well written as mainstream films, I remain unapologetic for my critical stance. Some people don't like that. Oh well.

Remember how horror films had real plots beyond seminaked teenagers + scary guy with sharp implement = movie?

Do you remember how bad sci-fi and fantasy movies used to be before a few really, really good ones got made? Then you'd get the knockoffs of variable but usually inferior quality?

Those knockoffs got made because Hollywood knew audiences would pay to see anything with flying saucers, dinosaurs, etc. That's why garbagefests like The Creeping Terror got released despite being shelved for several years after its completion, despite much of the soundtrack being lost, despite replacing the soundtrack with a new narrative track written without benefit of the original script (which had been lost), despite filmography which included using film cells backwards & running the film in reverse sequence (so we couldn't tell the alien spacecraft was a US Atlas launch), and many other problems.

It recouped its investment.

So yeah, I'm going to be very critical of genre films. I'm not giving them a pass just because they're in a genre I love.

Instead, I'm going to eye them critically because I love the genre, and I don't want it to devolve into an endless stream of utterly disposable celluloid.

There is no reason why genre films can't have their equivalents to Citizen Kane except the continued success Hollywood has had delivering bad genre films to record profits.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

how much info do you need before you decide not to watch a movie or read a particular book?

Much, much more than a trailer or cover.

Really.

So you're saying you never rule out films or books just because of their genre?

You know- do you not read Westerns because they are Westerns? Romance novels because they are Romance novels?

Are there no sections of your local bookstore or library you simply avoid? History? Self-Help? Computer Programming?

Have you never avoided a film because of a particular casting decision ("Michael Keaton as BATMAN?!?!?! WTF?")?

Impressive.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I think you missed my point there. I don't have anything against your decision making process. Its fine. We all have things we don't like. You saw a clip of the movie, and decided you wouldn't like it...

BUT, one clip out of a two hour movie is a TINY PART. You're main criticism of it being 'inferior' is completely off base. Bad writing and similar things for an entire movie are not going to be something you can judge from a clip, or an except from a book. So going on about it being inferior to the comics(which are not that wonderfuly written either, though I do love them) without even seeing the whole picture is the brunt of the problem I know I'm seeing.

You saw part of it and decided you wouldn't like it...okay, fine. You're allowed to. But you can't base the entire movie on that one clip and talk about how bad it is compared to the comics...when you haven't even seen the movie. To actually compare the two, you have to have BOTH points of reference. This has nothing to do with being critical of a genre(which, again, is fine) or things like that...its about having a point of reference to actually COMPARE the two. One clip from a two hour movie is just not enough to judge the movie's quality COMPARED TO THE COMICS.

For taste? Sure. But for it being faithful to the original or anything like that? No way.

 

[Vigilance]

You don't think its my right as a consumer to let others know there is an aspect of a movie I don't like, and let them decide for themselves?

Attempted persuasive speech is not OK?

Interesting.

Um, I didn't realize one of your point was "I have the right to say this!"

I of course believe you have the right to say whatever you want. I didn't realize I had to point that out.

I was disagreeing with you that strict continuity in movies is important, and that the movie was poorly written.

I'm a huge comics fan, but I view comics and movies as so different that I treat watching an FF movie like I do reading an Ultimate FF comic. It's a restart of the franchise. All bets are off, and continuity doesn't extend beyond the movies themselves.

Of course, since I have to point these things out, I think reasonable people can disagree on these points.

But to me, regardless of the merits of the movie itself, my niece who never had read an FF comic in her life, has now borrowed every FF trade I own and has point blank asked me to buy more.

In short, it took a girl who was a reader of Spider-Man and X-Men (along with Betty and Veronica) and made her a reader of the FF too.

To me, as a comics fan, that makes the movie an unqualified success.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

BUT, one clip out of a two hour movie is a TINY PART. You're main criticism of it being 'inferior' is completely off base.

It is a tiny part, as is any clip, but as I pointed out, the power switch was a development with a highly probable logical consequence that was revealed (in the same clip) not to have occurred...and (still in the same clip) was revealed to be a continuing element of the film, despite its problems.

But you can't base the entire movie on that one clip and talk about how bad it is compared to the comics...when you haven't even seen the movie

Certainly you can if you think the sample you've seen is appallingly bad- which I do.

For another example, all it took me to avoid seeing the movie version of The Scarlet Letter was that it had "a surprise ending." Its a pretty famous book, required reading in many programs...so the words "surprise ending" were a fairly ill omen. As it turns out, the surprise ending was the main characters running away together. Merely a complete change of a classic story.

I was disagreeing with you that strict continuity in movies is important, and that the movie was poorly written.

I'm a huge comics fan, but I view comics and movies as so different that I treat watching an FF movie like I do reading an Ultimate FF comic. It's a restart of the franchise. All bets are off, and continuity doesn't extend beyond the movies themselves.

Continuity? As in A follows B follows C? As in you don't ditch developments from reel 1 when you go to reel 3? That is essential to storytelling.

You apparently mean congruence with the source material.

Apparently, despite my protestations to the contrary, it hasn't sunk in.

I don't believe in a 1 for 1 translation from source material to movie. I believe in a respectful translation from source material to movie.

The plot device of power switching is one that could have been handled many ways- none of which involve messing around with the SS's suite of abilities, and some of which would have made just as awesome a movie spectacle.

Just off the top of my head, the power-switch could have been achieved respectfully if the writers had used:

1) A Marvel character known for warping reality, like the Scarlet Witch or Proteus. (This could have been spliced into the SS/Galactus storyline as a combo of comic relief coupled with bad timing.)

What? Those characters don't exist in the FF movies?

Well, neither did SS & Big G before this movie. And the Scarlet Witch has had interactions with the FF.

Read on...

2) The actual Super Skrull & his bretheren. The FF fending off an alien invasion? Classic. Hey, maybe even the Kree show up to make the power-switch more stable...Humanity as unknowing pawns in an intergalactic war? Epic!

3) A terrestrial pathogen mixed with an alien biology...say, the Bird Flu interacting with the Impossible Man. (This could have been spliced into the SS/Galactus storyline as a combo of comic relief coupled with bad timing.)

4) An alien pathogen mixed with the FF's biology...say, a bioweapon from the Negative Zone, courtesy of Annihilus.

5) A supernatural curse, courtesy of Doctor Doom (who, in addition to his technological prowess, is one of Marvel's most powerful terrestrial spellcasters).

6) An alien pathogen accidentally or purposefully released from the ship of The Collector. Or as a challenge from one of the other Elders of the Universe, like the Grandmaster or the Champion. Or the Stranger.

7) Terrigen Mist, so the plot could involve the Kree, the Skrull, the Eternals, the Deviants, the Inhumans and the Celestials in any combination.

8) An unintended side effect of Reed's labwork. (This could have been spliced into the SS/Galactus storyline as a combo of comic relief coupled with bad timing.)

9) One of the time-muckers like Kang the Conquerer or the Scarlet Scarab probably has the tech to do this as well.

10) Something completely new, never before seen in the FF history.

Instead, they mucked around with an established character's history.

(And don't even get me started on SS driving off/killing Big G.)

 

[Vigilance]

I don't believe in a 1 for 1 translation from source material to movie. I believe in a respectful translation from source material to movie.

Again, the fact that my niece for the first is not only reading the FF, and reading it in droves, literally devouring every trade she can get her hands on, as a direct result of this movie, is pretty damn respectful to me.

I mean, I think we can both agree that the REAL place to get the best experience of the FF is courtesy of Lee, Kirby, Buscema, Byrne et al. Right? What's the purpose of these movies?

I contend: Make Marvel money (which this movie did) and grow the fanbase of the comics (which this movie has done in my personal experience).

This movie got my niece to borrow the Marvel Masterworks containing the ACTUAL Galactus story and read it.

That's doing right by a franchise in my book.

Good Marvel! Gooooooooooooooood Marvel!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Again, the fact that my niece for the first is not only reading the FF, and reading it in droves, literally devouring every trade she can get her hands on, as a direct result of this movie, is pretty damn respectful to me.

You seem to have a different definiton of "respectful" than do I.

"Respect" of the source material is not introducing arbitrary changes, especially ones that carry continuing weight in the development of the plot at hand. Everything done in this movie as a result of the mucking with the SS could have been achieved in another manner (see above).

And I applaud how well the CGI dudes captured the epic visuals of the SS character...as soon as I saw the first trailer, I wanted to see this movie. But, OTOH, they were ultimately hampered by a script that utterly removed from the screen one of Marvel's most powerful beings (Big G).

C'mon...this is the comic franchise that made Marvel.

I mean, I think we can both agree that the REAL place to get the best experience of the FF is courtesy of Lee, Kirby, Buscema, Byrne et al. Right?

Agreed.

What's the purpose of these movies?
I contend: Make Marvel money (which this movie did)

Agreed.

And had it had a better script, it might have made even more.

and grow the fanbase of the comics (which this movie has done in my personal experience).

As always with opinions, YMMV.

As of this point, I have even fewer reasons to see the next FF movie, if there is one.

This movie got my niece to borrow the Marvel Masterworks containing the ACTUAL Galactus story and read it.

Good. And how does she feel about the change from the comics? And what does that mean in regards to her continued enjoyment of the film franchise?

 

[Vigilance]

Good. And how does she feel about the change from the comics? And what does that mean in regards to her continued enjoyment of the film franchise?

She hasn't commented on it either way. I think she's more used to rolling with continuity changes than my generation.

For example, the X-Men movies made her a huge fan of that franchise several years ago. Since then, she's read the original comics, watched the original X-Men cartoons (which had their own continuity), watched the X-men Evolution cartoons (which had their own continuity) and read Ultimate X-Men (separate continuity).

And she's never minded in my experience. Or if she does, she doesn't mention it and continues to request more to read lol.

By contrast, when I was growing up I had the Uncanny X-Men and that's it. My nerd friends and I used to read the Dark Phoenix saga on a loop. The addition of New Mutants to the X-verse seemed like a HUGE new level of information on that little corner of the Marvel U.

These days, comics franchises are huge multi-media brands that you can experience as movies, cartoons, multiple comic continuities and video games (thank you Lord).