D&D 5E No One Plays High Level?

[Maxperson]

That's a game problem if the game owners and the industry wants D&D to be the entry point to TTRPGs.

That essentially is the core issue.

How? How is the ability to play high level just fine an problem? There are plenty enough high level creatures to play the game just fine. It's just my personal preference that desires a greater variety.

 

[Demetrios1453]

Exactly.

That's why I say "High level 5e is objectively broken because casters have too many spell slots and this reduces the number of playstyles that high levels can run to 2 because 1)the DM has to burn down a lot of spells slots in unrealistic ways in order to create a challenge and 2) in order to burn though all those spell slots, he DM must make the caster look at all their complex spells and lengthen their turn dramatically"

I said this over and over.

Then people say "High level is fine. I run it."

Then when you learn their player turns and monster turns take foooooooooooeeevvveeeeer and the DM is always metagaming way to sneak in 8 combats to burn through 16 spell slots on 2-3 casters each everydaaaaaaaaay

I say "Do you realize that very long turns and the need to metagame in filler fights on archmages and high priests all the time might cause people to not play high levels?"

"Well that's D&D. Go play some other game. It's annoying but I like it. You can't please everyone."

If you think high-level magic-users in 5e have too many spell slots, well, you really wouldn't have liked them in 1e - 3e, where they had a significantly higher number!

 

[Minigiant]

How? How is the ability to play high level just fine an problem? There are plenty enough high level creatures to play the game just fine. It's just my personal preference that desires a greater variety.

There isn't enough monsters.
There are only 44 monsters in the MM between CR 13 and 20 and like 15 of them are dragons that you are hard pressed to reuse.
Then you have to factor in the ones which only function in enclosed dungeons.
Then you have to factor in the one that are casters and thus result in long turn or heavybrewing
There aren't enough monsters. And of what is given too many are similar and play to similar play styles.

Low numbers. Low variety.
That's a problem as a entry point game.

 

[Minigiant]

If you think high-level magic-users in 5e have too many spell slots, well, you really wouldn't have liked them in 1e - 3e, where they had a significantly higher number!

I hated it.

5e kept objectively bad ideas out of tradition and people keep the bad ides as sacred cows.

 

[Scott Christian]

Exactly.

That's why I say "High level 5e is objectively broken because casters have too many spell slots and this reduces the number of playstyles that high levels can run to 2 because 1)the DM has to burn down a lot of spells slots in unrealistic ways in order to create a challenge and 2) in order to burn though all those spell slots, he DM must make the caster look at all their complex spells and lengthen their turn dramatically"

I said this over and over.

Then people say "High level is fine. I run it."

Then when you learn their player turns and monster turns take foooooooooooeeevvveeeeer and the DM is always metagaming way to sneak in 8 combats to burn through 16 spell slots on 2-3 casters each everydaaaaaaaaay

I say "Do you realize that very long turns and the need to metagame in filler fights on archmages and high priests all the time might cause people to not play high levels?"

"Well that's D&D. Go play some other game. It's annoying but I like it. You can't please everyone."

It is not about the casters. Who are the antagonists? That is all that matters. Show me a bunch of 15th level casters, and I will show you an encounter that is extremely difficult, possibly teeter-tottering on death, and/or fun. You make it seem like if they have their spell slots they are invincible. If that is the case, I have terrible news for you. Every high level caster in the MM is then... always... invincible?

The answer is, run your opponents correctly and every class has a way to shine. Design your encounters correctly, and every class has a way to shine. Don't put the work in (because high levels requires A LOT of work), then perhaps the game is broke.

 

[Demetrios1453]

How? How is the ability to play high level just fine an problem? There are plenty enough high level creatures to play the game just fine. It's just my personal preference that desires a greater variety.

Which they said yesterday they are going to provide in 2024. They mentioned a CR 20 Ooze and a hag (Fey) of a CR at or around that level.

 

[Demetrios1453]

There isn't enough monsters.
There are only 44 monsters in the MM between CR 13 and 20 and like 15 of them are dragons that you are hard pressed to reuse.
Then you have to factor in the ones which only function in enclosed dungeons.
Then you have to factor in the one that are casters and thus result in long turn or heavybrewing
There aren't enough monsters. And of what is given too many are similar and play to similar play styles.

Low numbers. Low variety.
That's a problem as a entry point game.

So... wait a few months until the 2024 MM is released. Yesterday they were talking about all the high CR creatures they are adding, and even gave a couple of examples.

(And beyond the MM, you have MotM, Fizban's, and Bigby's with quite a variety of high CR creatures. Granted, that requires extra purchases, but my point about the 2024 MM still stands)

 

[Maxperson]

Supporting one playstyle only means harming another if you are bad at design or play favorites blatantly and massively.

TSR and WOTC designers have always had an issue with playstyle bias or blindness.

An RPG cannot support all playstyles. They necessarily favor some over others by virtue of how they are designed. And no, that design isn't inherently bad just because it favors some styles over others.

 

[Minigiant]

It is not about the casters. Who rare the antagonists? That is all that matters. Show me a bunch of 15th level casters, and I will show you an encounter that is extremely difficult, possibly teeter-tottering on death, and/or fun. You make it seem like if they have their spell slots they are invincible. If that is the case, I have terrible news for you. Every high level caster in the MM is then... always... invincible?

Oh where did Isay casters are invincible?

I said caster have too many spell slots so the DM has to chuck throwaway battles to chip them down and the players have too many spells to consider every turn. And that's before the DM plays casters to counter the casters and the Final Jeopardy theme plays on everyone's turn every turn every battle.

Spotify says Jeopardy theme is one of my favorite songs from playing it so much to rush my players.

This is becoming like political debate where people see things that aren't there.

 

[Maxperson]

Which they said yesterday they are going to provide in 2024. They mentioned a CR 20 Ooze and a hag (Fey) of a CR at or around that level.

Sure. I'm wasn't complaining that it isn't going to change. I was just pointing out what my issues with high level play were and how my issue isn't a game issue.