D&D 5E No One Plays High Level?

[Reynard]

Question... say a published high-level adventure catches your eye. It's for a limited level range, not a 1-20 mega-campaign. What qualities would you need to see in the adventure to consider picking it up?

Specifically, qualities UNIQUE to high-level play. Not good adventure design principles in general.

For example, I think higher-level play tends to involve more hooks based on (a) PC backstories, and (b) past choices/actions of the PCs. Finding innovative ways to hook into those things in the context of an adventure module would be something that would catch my eye.

Unless the published adventure is actually a sequel to another adventure the PCs have experienced, then those hooks are going to be up to the GM. However, one thing such a module could do is provide a section telling the GM who the important people -- helpers, antagonists, and otherwise -- are in the module and asking the GM to think of NPCs from their campaign that can replace these NPCs based on role. That way, it should be relatively easy for the GM to tie the long history of the party to the new module. After all, i think most of us lean on archetypes and tropes to some degree.

Another element that I would certainly want to see is a more situational approach: the UberLich has awakened and wants to get revenge on the Council of Divine Dragons for defeating him lo these many centuries ago. Rather than a plot structure, give us all the important bits -- NPCs with their motivations and relationships, locations, important events -- and a rough outline of what might happen if the PCs were not to get involved. The rest will take care of itself. I prefer this sort of design in general, but I think it is very important for high level adventures. The person that has been GMing the party for 20 levels hardly knows what they are going to do. A designer/writer has no hope.

 

[Minigiant]

It's not like you skip levels 2 through 19.

There should be more advice and support for high level play, it's something that has been brought up in the WOTC podcasts. But as many others have stated the game works just fine.

Didn't say it doesn't work fine

Said that you won't learn how to run a level 15-20 adventure by running a level 1-5 adventure.

D&D is much like a strategy game. The rules are the same through play but early game, mid game, and late game often don't use the same strategy.

Defending yourself from Barbarians and wild animals in early game Civilization is different from synergizing buildings and great people to push or stave off an religious, science, or culture victory in late game Civilization.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Yeaaah... our number of powers got into the teens well before our levels did.

4e goes past 10 parts.

By level 30 you have a total of 17 powers - so yeah, above 10. But the point remains, you exchanged old abilities for new, keepting the total at a managable level.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

By level 30 you have a total of 17 powers - so yeah, above 10. But the point remains, you exchanged old abilities for new, keepting the total at a managable level.

Plus rituals, plus item powers, plus racials. It's just a lot.

 

[Alby87]

I think most people, including the people who wrote it, believe the DMG needs improvement. However, sometimes the best and only teacher is experience. If you're not very well versed in the game you should be starting play at level 1. By the time you get to high levels, you should have enough experience to play high level. You will all make mistakes of course, but that's nothing new and nothing that can be 100% avoided. Depending on budget, most of the things you list are best handled by a DndBeyond subscription. There is no way a book is going to keep up with new spells being added. If someone casts a spell I'm not familiar with I may take a moment to read it to ensure that I understand it. But counter it? Nah. I don't do that, what happens happens. Instead I build in flexibility, which is a separate topic.

As far as specific advice this is a forum where if you have a question you can ask for advice. You might even get some answers that will help!

I understand your point of view, but experience come from playing the game. I've mastered a couple of campaign, both from level 1. I've learned a lot, if I could re-run some sessions I would have mastered better for sure. But, after some time, with your PCs at eight, nine... one start losing control, if not trained. My players sometimes are confused by all the options, for me is five times the burden. I used the example of the "Monster know" books because, when I prep for a sesion and I know which moster will be there, is a good help to develop a strategy, and the encounters are fun (my players had to praise me). Yes, statblock and description are there, but that book help understand a little better thanks to someone who don't want to explain a rule, but how to use a rule. Spells are explained in the PHB and other books, effect and all. But why not have a book that can tell you that Simulacrum (for example) can be used for this, this and this. Can be really useful.

Having a more "trained" DM will help him to be more confident, and to run better high level games, and then the DM will gain real life experience, in a cycle of improvemente. But that cycle have to start, and not using an already going campaign as the training wheel.

Naturally I'm speaking as a newbie DM who started the hobby well in my 30s. Starting at 10s, with a lot of time, everyday playing and so on is something different. I recognize it.

I don't mean to pick on you, personally, but I've never understood the frustration some people seem to have with video titles. Judging a video by its title is, to me, like judging a book by its cover, or the tagline, etc. If there's an action story that bills itself as "the greatest tale ever told!" I don't hold that against it, because it's understood (at least to me) that it's not supposed to be taken literally, and so isn't trying to "bait" you into anything. And yet there are some people who treat "clickbait" titles like they were just sold a handful of magic beans (which didn't grow into a giant beanstalk).

/rant

Content creator wants clicks to improve their statistics/earnings. I just love when a video (but also articles) has a normal title that give you an information but also sparks the curiosity to see it.
For example, a lot of D&D content creators use so vague terms that they seem to insult my intelligence. "With THIS I started enjoying D&D again", with a thumbnail of a censored book cover. A click is not something I pay, and technically I should at least see two youtube advert before even knowing the subject of something. Why "pay" before even know what's inside. Would you buy a book wrapped in opaque shrinkwrap because "this is good"? Other creation contents would go to the tune of "Why I like Old School Essentials". I'm not interested in OSR or I already know OSE? That would be a pass. But if I'm slighty interested in it, and you are being honest with me, I will like your video a lot more. Naturally, that are my two cents too

 

[TheSword]

Has anyone ever found benefit from this old book? (And, more importantly, is its advice of any value today?)

View attachment 328462

I liked it. It has some maxims for high level play it which I think ring pretty true to this day.

- Don’t Depend on the Dice (They’re too fickle)

- Intelligent Adversaries (consider the opponent’s intelligence; review the creature’s weaknesses; review the creature’s strengths; prepare for defeat; minimise personal risks; don’t Fight Fair

- Control Magic (use magical items, make magic tempting, remove unwanted magical items, challenge spell memorisation and acquisition, understand magic’s limitations)

- Be Aware of Demographics (Understand the PCs place in the world)

- Think on an Epic Scale (heroes are not anonymous; heroes deserve heroic tasks that have reaching Impact)

- Plan Ahead (create villains who learn, have consequences, use fame and infamy, maintain the balancing act)

- Share Responsibility (garner player interest, have players set goals, form allies and enemies, give all NPCs personality)

Its pretty old now, but as I write them I can see that most of the elements have found their way into modern adventure design at all levels.

I got it right at the end of AD&D so the mechanical elements were of less use but good inspiration.

 

[Oofta]

Didn't say it doesn't work fine

Said that you won't learn how to run a level 15-20 adventure by running a level 1-5 adventure.

D&D is much like a strategy game. The rules are the same through play but early game, mid game, and late game often don't use the same strategy.

Defending yourself from Barbarians and wild animals in early game Civilization is different from synergizing buildings and great people to push or stave off an religious, science, or culture victory in late game Civilization.

Then I stand corrected. Obviously instead of saying you don't skip levels 2-19, you don't skip 6-14.

 

[nevin]

They aren't outerplanars. They are all created in Middle Earth and at some point a bunch of them are invited to live in Aman(heaven). Then many of them leave and do some bad things on the way out.

no you are wrong. The elves are all just one step below the Mair. Heaven is on the other side of the undying lands and the elves live in the undying lands and what we call middle earth is where all the mortals who will die go. Elves are outer planar beings. When they die they reform in the undying lands. As the silmarillion and all the other books are a bit all over the place it gets confusing but that part is not. The reason the elves had to leave in the third age is they aren't mortals and it's not thier realm. After the elves all left the undying lands and heaven were completely seperated from middle earth that's the reason the ones who stayed became mortal. They lost thier link to the undying lands and thier only path was on to the afterlife mortals went too and the elves didn't get to go there they had no idea what it was like. The creations story, the first age and the second age are all part of the creation of the world. It's not done till middle earth is handed over to the Humans. Then all that celestial magic, or infernal magic from morkoth fades away and it become a boring old non magic world.

 

[nevin]

I liked it. It has some maxims for high level play it which I think ring pretty true to this day.

- Don’t Depend on the Dice (They’re too fickle) (for major plot points). Still need random or players wil feel like it's all been decided already.

- Intelligent Adversaries (consider the opponent’s intelligence; review the creature’s weaknesses; review the creature’s strengths; prepare for defeat; minimise personal risks; don’t Fight Fair YESSS YESSSS no fairness from BBEGI's. You as DM have to plan, create and then outthink a group of people. Make it hard.

- Control Magic (use magical items, make magic tempting, remove unwanted magical items, challenge spell memorisation and acquisition, understand magic’s limitations) WRONG. If the PC's can do it everyone else that has access can do it. limiting access to the fun stuff defeats the spirit of high level play. Now having the BBEGI's and other scum steal thier magic is a different story....hehe (occasionally and with self control)

- Be Aware of Demographics (Understand the PCs place in the world) and the politics of the world and the gods of the world and the politics of the gods.

- Think on an Epic Scale (heroes are not anonymous; heroes deserve heroic tasks that have reaching Impact)

- Plan Ahead (create villains who learn, have consequences, use fame and infamy, maintain the balancing act)

- Share Responsibility (garner player interest, have players set goals, form allies and enemies, give all NPCs personality)

Its pretty old now, but as I write them I can see that most of the elements have found their way into modern adventure design at all levels.

I got it right at the end of AD&D so the mechanical elements were of less use but good inspiration.

a few edits to add my opinion.

 

[Minigiant]

By level 30 you have a total of 17 powers - so yeah, above 10. But the point remains, you exchanged old abilities for new, keepting the total at a managable level.

It stops being really manageable for most people in the mid teens unless you either develop a rotation or pick easier or simpler powers.

Then you have all the feats. And feats that give powers.

And your racial power.
And your at wills.

I would limit it to 10 slots.
1 Race Slot
1 Background Slot
3 Class Slots
2 Subclass Slots
3 Wild Feat Slots for Subrace, Culture, Specialization, Multiclass,, 2nd Subclass, etc.

Or make slots Intelligence score to make it a choice. Tons of slots for Wizards.