D&D 5E No One Plays High Level?

[kigmatzomat]

Spoiler

The party isn't moving straight. Are you really saying that they can accurately change the cannon's aim to accurately follow a very small, fast moving, zig-zagging party?

You mean like cavalry? Yeah, cannon were good at shooting cavalry. Why? case shot. Aim low, hit the ground between you and them, get a cone of lead dozens of yards wide.

Imagine if a sorcerer could use metamagic to get Cone of Cold transmuted to piercing and originate a few thousand feet away.

Or canister, which is a thousand foot-long cone of lead.

As for zig-zagging, moving laterally loses forward motion. How much do you need to zig to dodge multiple cones of case/canister? 40ft? 60ft? Will you take another volley as a result? Or just die extra tired?

 

[Maxperson]

I am confused. All wishes are cast in one action and ignore material components. Forbiddance is a 6th level spell that covers a room 200ft x200ft. That'a 40 squares x 40 squares. You can't even shoot a fireball all the way across it.

So....where was the risk of using Wish?

I believe the risk is that Wish duplicates the spell, not the spell's effect, so using Wish to cast Forbiddance without the 10 minute casting time is a modified Forbiddance spell, not a duplicate. Technically that would be correct and would trigger the risk of losing the ability to cast Wish. I personally wouldn't rule that way and would just allow it safely, which I think is the intent, but I can see where a DM would rule that the risk was there.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

The true use for Monks: use Evasion to dodge the shrapnel, Deflect Missiles to block the cannonballs, then stunlock whoever is firing.

 

[James Gasik]

Big difference between firing at a fixed position that has to have line of sight to multiple targets and a moving group of individuals that can take cover and move randomly. It's still a cannon, not a machine gun.

Now if there is only one way to approach the cannon emplacement, that's a different story. I watched this video recently about Cassius Clay, who was a firm believer in "home defense cannons", lol, where there's a scenario where it was basically impossible to approach him outside of a narrow corridor.

But D&D characters have lots of options for approaching enemies from unexpected directions.

 

[Reynard]

I watched this video recently about Cassius Clay, who was a firm believer in "home defense cannons", lol, where there's a scenario where it was basically impossible to approach him outside of a narrow corridor.

Sting like a bee, indeed.

 

[nevin]

I don't want to derail this so for those who care

Spoiler

Ever had a party get 'sniped' by an aimed shot of iron ball from a mile away able to hit a specific horse-sized target? Because that's what counter-battery fire is: Cannons shooting other cannons at that range.

Although with a group they likely use case shot, where a cheap tin can would be filled with 50-100 musket balls. Aim twenty yards in front of the party, the can bursts and create a fan of lead, each ball able to shoot through multiple people or a horse.

So the party responds with overwhelming force yeah? Wait, no, nothing has close to a mile range. Hope you have a caster with teleport still alive, because you now need to run four thousand+ feet to get in bow range. Lets say magic-boosted speed of 90, take double moves so thats 22 rounds.

Huh, that's 2 minutes 12 seconds. Take two more shots. Except since "close" range for a cannon is at 1,000ft (or as I like to call it "still well out of bow & spell range") they switch to canister for the second, creating a cone of lead. Even at that range, grapeshot was more than likely to punch through one person to hit people behind them.

Aiming doesn't need to be precise when using a massive shotgun with a cone yards wide, fire rates can go up. One shot every 9 rounds? Every 8 rounds?

Yeah but now the PCs with longbows can start to shoot back. That single cannon will go silent quickly. Except cannons are rarely singletons. They are units. Napoleon would take a 100-200 cannons on campaign and concentrate fire on specific targets.
But lets be reasonable. Lets say there are six 12 pounders, each 75+ feet from the next, ordered to fire at a feisty group of PCs.

How do they survive 18+ cannon blasts on that run to bow range?

since most firearms in most D&D supplements that I've seen are Early generation firearms then I'd say all that is BS if that's what we are talking about. Early canon's, muskets etc were terrible up until around 1600's Up until repeating rifles became the norm they weren't that much of an advantage, and some things like LongBows were considered better, more accurate, caused more damage, penetrate armor better. Now if you are going to 1600's or newer firearms that's fine but then we get to do a fun little experiment. All those random arbitrary limitations on magic user spells have to be rejustified. If you can have a stick that shoots a mile accurately why can't the magic user make a fireball powered cannone with truestrike that dimension doors out of the tube to increase it's overall range, with each level of die damage increasing the range?

And as always if everyone has access to it then it'll work out.

 

[Maxperson]

@kigmatzomat

Spoiler

"You mean like cavalry? Yeah, cannon were good at shooting cavalry. Why? case shot. Aim low, hit the ground between you and them, get a cone of lead dozens of yards wide."

And there were LOTS of cavalry AND they were charging straight, not evading. Shooting at four horse riders who are zig-zagging or even just going in a circle around the cannon would not work very well. They couldn't aim it fast enough.

You keep trying to make cannons effective against small evading groups and it just won't work. Cannons were designed to use against armies, stationary enemy cannons, and enemy fortifications. Things that were either not moving, or were in large groups such that you were bound to hit someone if you just sort of aimed in the right direction.

"As for zig-zagging, moving laterally loses forward motion. How much do you need to zig to dodge multiple cones of case/canister? 40ft? 60ft? Will you take another volley as a result? Or just die extra tired?"

No. Zig-zagging does not have to end forward movement. You can indeed zig-zag and still move forward. I see it happen on many Sundays during football season. As for being extra tired, even a dozen people are going to tire far more quickly trying to swing a massively heavy cannon back and forth to aim at the zig-zagging group, than the fairly lightly equipped zig-zagging group will.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

I believe the risk is that Wish duplicates the spell, not the spell's effect, so using Wish to cast Forbiddance without the 10 minute casting time is a modified Forbiddance spell, not a duplicate. Technically that would be correct and would trigger the risk of losing the ability to cast Wish. I personally wouldn't rule that way and would just allow it safely, which I think is the intent, but I can see where a DM would rule that the risk was there.

except that doesn't follow either, since immediately after it says "You don’t need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect." - casting time would be a requirement, no?

 

[Maxperson]

except that doesn't follow either, since immediately after it says "You don’t need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect." - casting time would be a requirement, no?

I would think so, but the post in question made a point of saying that he was using it to cast Forbiddance in less than 10 minutes, so I think that's where the potential loss of wish came from.

Edit: Is casting time a requirement, or are requirements things like jeweled sticks and pints of blood or whatever?

 

[W'rkncacnter]

I would think so, but the post in question made a point of saying that he was using it to cast Forbiddance in less than 10 minutes, so I think that's where the potential loss of wish came from.

very strange ruling, then.