No small weapons - I'm okay with this

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Err, right, which is why a halfling fighter does less damage than a human fighter. In both categories, the human can use a bigger weapon than the halfling can and thus inflict more damage.

Which makes being a halfling character that does melee suboptimal. Personally, I think it's poor game design to have a race that is effectively gimped across a range of classes. It's one thing to be slightly better at a class (+2 Dex vs. +2 Str, for example); it's something else to be gimped (unless there is a compensation for the halfling fighter/paladin/warlord that we don't know about, ut since the +1 AC/+1 to hit from 3E appears to be gone ...)

 

[Kordeth]

I was mostly just trying to convince myself. When you first posted that I was assuming there was a formal rule regarding small fighters that I had missed.

Nope, just the rule that Small characters in general have to use versatile weapons two-handed and get no damage bonus from doing so, and can't use two-handed weapons. It's effectively exactly the same as 3.0, just worked out in a slightly simpler way.

Small hands? Easier to slip past your defenses? Don't know... makes sense to me though. It's a DEX thing.

Sure, if you're using a power that lets you make Dex attacks. We were talking about human fighters vs. halfling fighters, though, and all the fighter powers we've seen are Strength-based, so halfling fighters are just plain putting out less damage than a comparably-statted human fighter. It remains to be seen whether there are properties inherent to being Small, or halfling racial traits, that even that disparity out.

 

[Kordeth]

Which makes being a halfling character that does melee suboptimal. Personally, I think it's poor game design to have a race that is effectively gimped across a range of classes. It's one thing to be slightly better at a class (+2 Dex vs. +2 Str, for example); it's something else to be gimped (unless there is a compensation for the halfling fighter/paladin/warlord that we don't know about, ut since the +1 AC/+1 to hit from 3E appears to be gone ...)

Just to nitpick, the difference in damage between +2 Str and 1d6 vs. 1d8 weapon damage is, on average, identical. Actually, the smaller weapon compared to the baseline fighter (that is, a fighter of a race with no particular advantages or disadvantages geared toward fighter-ing) is less gimped than the baseline fighter compared to, the +2 Strength guy in terms of pure attack power, because the +2 Strength guy has a +1 to hit and damage over the baseline, whereas the baseline only has a +1 to damage over the small weapon guy.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Just to nitpick, the difference in damage between +2 Str and 1d6 vs. 1d8 weapon damage is, on average, identical. Actually, the smaller weapon compared to the baseline fighter (that is, a fighter of a race with no particular advantages or disadvantages geared toward fighter-ing) is less gimped than the baseline fighter compared to, the +2 Strength guy in terms of pure attack power, because the +2 Strength guy has a +1 to hit and damage over the baseline, whereas the baseline only has a +1 to damage over the small weapon guy.

While technically true, it doesn't hold true for 3E - all small races had a -2 Str racial adjustment attached, giving them -2 damage, -1 hit from the base line and made it much harder to qualify for useful things like Power Attack.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Kordeth]

While technically true, it doesn't hold true for 3E - all small races had a -2 Str racial adjustment attached, giving them -2 damage, -1 hit from the base line and made it much harder to qualify for useful things like Power Attack.

Cheers, LT.

Yes, but we're talking about 4E, where the concept of racial stat penalties has gone the way of the dodo.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Just to nitpick, the difference in damage between +2 Str and 1d6 vs. 1d8 weapon damage is, on average, identical. Actually, the smaller weapon compared to the baseline fighter (that is, a fighter of a race with no particular advantages or disadvantages geared toward fighter-ing) is less gimped than the baseline fighter compared to, the +2 Strength guy in terms of pure attack power, because the +2 Strength guy has a +1 to hit and damage over the baseline, whereas the baseline only has a +1 to damage over the small weapon guy.

Acknowledged, but the +2 Str guy is more likely to be a melee class to boot, so he's up 2 points on the halfling on average, not just one.

The case gets worse in the 3.0 or 4E "can't use a two-handed weapon" set. So you can be a halfling with a longsword (1d8) or a human with a greatsword (2d6) ... you're down 2.5 damage on average (ability scores aside, forgetting that the human can now choose to put his +2 in Str). Of course maybe the greatsword has a [small] keyword ...

I'd like to see the basic damage options be more-or-less equivalent to start. Then you can get better by specializing (or by optimizing by putting that +2 in Str), but you're not starting in a hole you have to dig out of. Trading +1 damage on average for +1 to hit was a reasonable trade in 3E (actually slightly better than reasonable), but I don't see where 4E has compensated the halfling.

 

[mlund]

Consider if you will, the 3.5 Longsword and Shortsword:

The Longsword does Slashing Damage, but the Shortsword does Piercing damage - why? I propose that the difference comes from how you apply their mass to do damage. A shortsword lacks the necessary mass to make a credible Slashing threat against most sorts of armor.

In the same regard, a Small Longsword doesn't make a credible Slashing threat against most sorts of armor - it lacks the mass. It should be wielded for Piercing damage, identically to a Shortsword, even in the hands of a Small Creature.

A "Halfling Longsword" has to be used for damage in the same way as a "Human Shortsword" - whether in the hands of a Human or a Halfling because the properties of the item itself don't change. It is only at its full damage potential when you use it to stab, regardless of your size.

- Marty Lund

 

[Festivus]

I am perfectly OK with it too, I don't really care, but I fully understand where the nitpickers are coming from. If you accept that premise, than you state that Halfling smiths only make weapons for medium size creatures, not for themselves... it's a weird premise.

The more elegant thing to do is to simply make the following table:

Normal.................Halfling
Weapon...............Weapon
======================
Dagger................Short-Sword
Short-Sword.........Long-Sword
Hand-Axe.............Battle-Axe
Battle-Axe............Greataxe
Short-Bow............Long-Bow

You do that in the halfling racial entry. If a medium creature finds a halfling short-sword, he can wield it as a dagger. If a halfling finds a medium hand-axe, he can wield it as a battle-axe, and so on and so forth.

What about for Large and larger sizes? Does a Greataxe count as a hand-axe in the hands of a giant? I am sure creatures don't really count, but thinking about a couple things that would come up in game:

1. Party kills said giant and takes his stuff... what does the weapon count as for the players if he was holding a giant's battle-axe?

2. What happens when a fighter enlarges himself? Does his weapon still enlarge or stay the same size? Is there even an enlarge spell?

All this and more will be answered... when we see the PHB.

 

[frankthedm]

Is there even an enlarge spell?

I highly doubt there will be a spell that boosts the recipient a size catagory.

 

[Surgoshan]

Which makes being a halfling character that does melee suboptimal. Personally, I think it's poor game design to have a race that is effectively gimped across a range of classes. It's one thing to be slightly better at a class (+2 Dex vs. +2 Str, for example); it's something else to be gimped (unless there is a compensation for the halfling fighter/paladin/warlord that we don't know about, ut since the +1 AC/+1 to hit from 3E appears to be gone ...)

Except that now the halfling can take feats that make him harder to hit when he goes into melee with larger opponents. The bigger characters may be dealing more damage, but they'll also be soaking up more damage.