No turning for clerics? (A question, not a rumor.)

[HP Dreadnought]

As I ponder some of the weak spots in 3.5 rules and wonder what changes could be made to enhance the system, the subject of clerical turning springs to mind.

It seems that even by a relatively low level, the clerical ability to turn devalues many encounters with undead. Leaving aside clumsy mechanics, since they can be fixed. Should be ability to turn undead even be in 4th edition at all? Is it time to slaughter and eat the sacred turning cow?

Alternately, if turning stays, should it be restricted to only those servants of deities for whom turning would be a logical part of their portfolio?

What are your thoughts?

 

[WayneLigon]

I think mention has been made that the turning rules will be changed. Right now, my group and a couple others are using the Unearthed Arcana varient. Instead of turning, it does 1d6/level damage to any undead in the area of effect, I think it's a reflex save for half damage. Might be a fortitude save, though.

Much easier to use.

 

[Cadfan]

As a DM, I've used Turning to good effect.

Here's my trick. Turning works on the weakest enemies first. So when I have a climactic fight with an undead foe, I give him a pile of cheap skeletal minions. The cleric waves a holy symbol around and they all turn flee or melt into dust, leaving just the main bad guy and the minions to whom I've actually assigned importance, all of whom are too high a level for the cleric to turn. The cleric feels like a badass, and now the real fight can begin.

So in a way, it doesn't devalue the encounter. It increases its value.

But it could certainly be lost, easily, without damaging the game.

 

[Holy Bovine]

As a DM, I've used Turning to good effect.

Here's my trick. Turning works on the weakest enemies first. So when I have a climactic fight with an undead foe, I give him a pile of cheap skeletal minions. The cleric waves a holy symbol around and they all turn flee or melt into dust, leaving just the main bad guy and the minions to whom I've actually assigned importance, all of whom are too high a level for the cleric to turn. The cleric feels like a badass, and now the real fight can begin.

So in a way, it doesn't devalue the encounter. It increases its value.

But it could certainly be lost, easily, without damaging the game.

So turning is useless? I can't imagine a even a low level cleric feeling like a 'badass' for dusting a bunch of skeletons. And since your main undead bad guys are all too tough to be turned I wonder why bother with it in the first place?

Turning undead is one ability I would love to see either eliminated or made good. Neither the PHB or Unearthed Arcana variant are satisfactory. Also the UA variant is a Will save for half damage but think of what stuff like Improved Turning does (+50% turn damage) and the cleric can do that 6-7 times in an encounter! Hopefully Turning will be improved or removed.

 

[Kunimatyu]

I don't see why Turning couldn't be turned into a power/spell that deals damage to undead and evil outsiders, and leave it at that.

The "turning feats" that turn turning attempts into all sorts of things definitely need to go, though.

 

[Cadfan]

So turning is useless? I can't imagine a even a low level cleric feeling like a 'badass' for dusting a bunch of skeletons. And since your main undead bad guys are all too tough to be turned I wonder why bother with it in the first place?

I wouldn't draw the conclusion that turning undead is useless.

Lets say I'm setting up an important encounter with orcs. I know one of my players has the Fireball spell. I want him to get to use it. So I make sure that my orc encounter involves a sizable number of minions, perhaps attacking from a different direction from the main enemies. The mage fireballs the minions, who basically all die. The mage feels awesome. Meanwhile the main bad guys have engaged in hand to hand, and can no longer be wiped out with a single evocation spell.

It might seem like turning undead, or casting fireball, is useless in these examples. Its being used to clear out a bunch of mooks that wouldn't be there if the caster didn't have those abilities. But the player doesn't know that.

Part of being a DM is recognizing your player's best abilities and giving them a chance to use them that won't wreck the whole encounter in one shot, ruining everyone else's chance to excel. So you design the encounters around the players a bit. Every DM does it, and if you're offended to know that its going on, you're better off not looking behind the DM screen.

 

[FourthBear]

I'll also note that since turning is keyed to hit dice, it interacts particularly poorly with the undead monster type as described in the Monster Manual. Because of the lack of CON bonuses to hit points, monstrous undead hit dice exploded in value at mid to high levels. This resulted in turning undead becoming ineffective for most undead at high levels. However, undead generated with templates (and therefore average lower hit dice) would often be more vulnerable. The effects being all or nothing (also combined with the Sun domain and Disciple of the Sun) made for some frustrating experiences for players and DMs. Between that and the clunky resolution system, I would be very glad to see turn undead get a complete overhaul in 4e. Frankly, I'd also like to get rid of the "undead run away" effect, as much of the time it just draws out a fight or makes matters worse.

 

[Yergi]

Well if the Spined Devil is any indication, HD no longer exist for 4e monsters, which means they must have come up with some other alternative for how turning interacts with undead.

 

[Aldarc]

I am also hoping that they will just turn it into a spell and be done with it.

 

[Scribble]

Well if the Spined Devil is any indication, HD no longer exist for 4e monsters, which means they must have come up with some other alternative for how turning interacts with undead.

I could deal with it being like the mage trick where he gets to blast people all day long...

Make turning an optional feature that can be modified as you want...

So you could make the power be to attack undead with a holy blast kind of... Deals damage to undead after a successful attack on their REFLEX. Maybe before the ability to do damage it simply acts as a protection from undead spell.