No turning for clerics? (A question, not a rumor.)

[WyzardWhately]

I'm still hoping they keep SAGA's condition track, and that turning pushes undead down it.

 

[erf_beto]

I'm still hoping they keep SAGA's condition track, and that turning pushes undead down it.

Well, it might not be the same, but there is the Bloodied condition now... i'm assuming that, since it's listed next to HP, it is different for different monster (types). Considering how miniatures seem to take more place in 4E, what if by the time you get Bloodied you must make a Moral save in order to stay in combat or fight with some penalties? Maybe Undead cant get Bloodied... unless you turn undead on them.

 

[Lord Zack]

I think Turn Undead should be a Cleric Power, probably Per Day. It ought to be optional and available only to cleric of deities for which it makes sense. It definetly needs better mechanics.

 

[med stud]

There's never been a better time to not change the cleric than now. So they probably will.

Not changing the cleric is most likely not an option since the whole magic- system will get an overhaul.

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I would like turning to disappear, but then I also would like divine spell casters that aren't all armored warriors. IMO the whole adventuring priest- class would need an overhaul.

 

[The Shadow]

The whole "make the undead run away" bit never made sense to me. In fiction, what you see much more often is a shielded area - the bad guys are held at bay and can't get any closer.

Perhaps a mechanic where undead (and evil outsiders - or Immortals, now?) are held back to a certain radius based on the cleric's level... but can try to break through using Will defense somehow. (Cleric makes a Wisdom skill check vs. undead's Will defense?) A failed attempt to break through might well cause damage, or as someone else said, a slide down the condition track.

Probably it should require concentration to maintain, and it should definitely be a power like any other - per encounter, or maybe per day.

 

[Soel]

How about a positive energy aura-- as long as Undead are within it, they take dice of damage/round. The ammount/size of dice will vary by the cleric's level, and add CHA bonus to the damage

Level 1 d6
Level 4 d8
Level 7 d10
Level 10 2d6
Level 13 2d8
Level 16 3d6
Level 19 3d8
Level 22 4d6
Level 25 4d8
Level 28 5d6

So a level 28 cleric with +4 CHA does 5d6+4 dmg to all undead within x radius per round. Alternatively, instead of increasing damage, levels might increase the radius, duration, uses per day, etc.

I like these ideas. I would go along these lines, and also consider the Protection From Evil spell's effects for inclusion. You'd have the "they can't touch me, and they're taking some damage while I concentrate" thing going. It could even be enhanced with spells like Hallow (similar to recent spells with synergy effects from PH2.)

 

[vagabundo]

I'd like it to stay, but fix the mechanic maybe like the UA one.

I'd like it expanded, turning should be a consequence of channeling energy (pos or neg) and could be used for many other things.

All healing should be done through this channeling (pos) and the heal skill. It would make the heal skill necessary for all "Healers".

It could be used to activate special items and small buffs.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The whole "make the undead run away" bit never made sense to me. In fiction, what you see much more often is a shielded area - the bad guys are held at bay and can't get any closer.

Perhaps a mechanic where undead (and evil outsiders - or Immortals, now?) are held back to a certain radius based on the cleric's level... but can try to break through using Will defense somehow. (Cleric makes a Wisdom skill check vs. undead's Will defense?) A failed attempt to break through might well cause damage, or as someone else said, a slide down the condition track.

Probably it should require concentration to maintain, and it should definitely be a power like any other - per encounter, or maybe per day.

Yeah, I would also prefer if the undead turning wouldn't be aimed at destroying them. They should just keep them at bay (I think one of the often overlooked properties of the Vampire - there is some text indicating that you can use a holy symbol to keep them from approaching you, but I have rarely seen that in play, if ever.)

The current mechanics are awful in several ways:
1) The whole Turning Check / Turning System is a subsystem that integrates badly with the rest of the system
2) Basing it on HD breaks down since most undeads have twice as much HD has CR - except those that are actually supposed to be non-mooks, like Vampires, Lichs and several of the Incorporeal ones.
3) Turned undeads are annoying, because they run away and force the party to follow them, needlessly increasing the time needed to dispatch them.

An alternative mechanic:
1) Cleric makes a turning check (maybe it's a skill, class skill, divine caster level, level or a similar check) against Undeads Will Defense (modified by TUrn Resistance). (In D&D 3, replace this with a Will Save modified by Turning Defense against something like 10 + Turning Level / 2 + Charisma Modifier)
2) Success means the undead can't approach the Cleric, and is even forced back from threatening range. Ranged attacks and spell attacks should probably come at a penalty. (shaken effect in 3rd edition?)
3) Failure means the undead can approach (but might take a limited amount of damage). (Maybe 2d6 points of positive energy damage) No further penalties.
4) The effect lasts only as long as the Cleric spends an action "turning" the undead.
5) The range and area should probably be limited (Range 60 ft, Cone?), allowing the undead to outmaneuver the Cleric (but maybe the Cleric can spend an immediate/free action to react to movement, so if he encounters multiple undead, some will eventually manage to get behind them.

It is usuable at will. Maybe it should even be an ability that everybody can use, but the Clerics better (half level bonus for Non-Clerics, +level bonus for Clerics on turning checks, Cleric can "add" positive energy for extra damage)

 

[Sadrik]

Make it a per encounter power that needs to be readied at the beginning of the day like all other powers. Done!

The mechanics- actually break it into several powers of varying levels: sanctuary vs. undead (rebuke undead), an undead ward 60' radius around the caster, a targeted destroy undead, an undead buff (bolster undead), a command undead, and a cone of "fear" vs will defense (turn undead). Basically there are a lot of effects to cover but just make them powers rather than some out of place special rule that gets tacked on.

As a DM I wouldn't mind that. And hopefully they go back to second editions more split up idea of what a cleric's powers are. For instance every cleric will have the healing domain but they might have 3 or 4 other domains to draw their spell effects from. Make them a little more individualized based on their god. Every cleric may not have access to the turn undead powers (sun, good?).

I never liked having to overload encounters so that an undead encounter became a challenge.

 

[BASHMAN]

I don't see why Turning couldn't be turned into a power/spell that deals damage to undead and evil outsiders, and leave it at that.

The "turning feats" that turn turning attempts into all sorts of things definitely need to go, though.

I don't think they need to go. These could just be optional powers that you choose between a s you gain levels. They'd work great in the per encounter dynamic-- instead of having to use a turning attempt.

Divine shield: 1/encounter you can add your CHA bonus to your Shield for your level in rounds