D&D General Nobody likes an edition warrior.

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Eh, most successful doesn’t mean best.

Case in point, 4e is clearly the best D&D, and while it was not actually the failure people claim, it did split the fan base so badly that Pathfinder was able to sometimes outsell it.

Meanwhile, 3/.5 is the worst TTRPG ever published. It’s just science! 😂
Except 3.5 is also Pathfinder 1e which was also the best thing since slice bread. It is the quantum game, both the best and worst game depending on who is holding it.
 

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Except 3.5 is also Pathfinder 1e which was also the best thing since slice bread. It is the quantum game, both the best and worst game depending on who is holding it.
If one is looking for a game where there are rules (and plenty of them), but an absolutely enormous space of possible combinations with a variety of distinct textures, it's hard to beat 3.5e. It has epic play, half a dozen alternative magic systems, several dozen classes, zillions of feats, enormous piles of prestige classes. It can be an actually fun challenge trying to find a build that achieves your goals--yet, because there are so many rules, it's generally possible (but difficult!) to also evaluate whether a particular build is better or worse at that goal.

Pathfinder reduplicated much of this in its own way, largely axing PrCs but creating even more feats and (especially if you allow 3PP supplements) base classes, but also by creating its Archetype system, which sort of streamlines the process of doing the PrC "thing": you have to choose between often-mutually-exclusive options, which can achieve an enormous variety of specific ends by making sacrifices. (Or, if we're being honest, by making the smallest possible sacrifices for those goals, because PF, like 3.5e, does passively encourage min-maxing through the many options that trade fluff abilities for significant power increases.)

But, and this is a huge sticking point...there's also a lot of people that got really really burnt out on or frustrated by that very build-o-rama nature of 3rd edition. It might be the smaller group, but not by too much. (That's the unfortunate thing with sales--if 40% of the base loves X and 60% absolutely loathes X, all you see is that your sales have crashed. Even if it were 80/20, you'd see problems.) Because, if we're being really brutally honest, that huge possibility space I mentioned before? It's mostly full of garbage. Like, nearly all of it. The vast majority of PrCs, feats, and base classes just, frankly, suck. Moreover, they suck in ways that are really hard to see unless you've sunk your teeth pretty deep into the system. See, frex, all the hand-wringing about how "powerful" Monks were because of their pile of special features, despite the class being pretty obviously awful in hindsight.

And then, of the ones that remain, a pretty significant handful are stupidly overpowered in various ways, or more commonly, so incredibly good that no character that qualifies would ever ignore them. Natural Spell is of course a go-to example there, but so is the Pounce ability--if you can acquire it somehow, no matter how much you torture the rules to do it, you ABSOLUTELY should, because it's an enormous boost.

4e said, "Let's try to give the players a game where the vast majority is NOT garbage, yet also is NOT overpowered or must-have. And where the players can see reasonably quickly how different parts interact. Oh, and where they just DO their cool things right away, without having to wait for a long time to qualify first." So, by the standard listed above, this would be the worst game imaginable. There's by definition far less variety because, y'know, brand-new game can't compete with one that's got multiple years of heavy splatbook support. Further, cutting down on bad variety was an explicit goal, but since that's easy to re-frame as demonizing variety when you're already upset about the lack thereof, what should be a selling point instead looks like an openly-recognized flaw.

Then, with every class bringing multiple Cool Things you can do from level 1, it can look an awful lot like the game has killed the character-building minigame dead; no one will need to discuss builds when it's so obvious what works and what doesn't, right? (Obviously this wasn't true. But the active pursuit of clear, direct rules contributes to that feeling on first reading even if it's ultimately wrong.) And when everything is just good, what does it matter whether you choose Good Thing A or Good Thing B? Even though that choice has plenty of reasons to be more meaningful than choosing between Good Thing A and Bad Thing B, it's easy to re-frame that as choosing between indistinguishable things, and thus (again) turning what should be a selling point (your choices should always be meaningful because both options have value) into an openly-admitted flaw (your choices "don't matter" because they're "the same" either way).

3rd edition D&D and Pathfinder 1st edition will almost certainly retain a fanbase well into the foreseeable future. It's going to be almost impossible to match the perfect storm those games offer. No game can ever come out on day 1 with a similar level of variety and valid available content. Further, trying to do what those games did but without the cruft and crap options is going to be incredibly hard to communicate to an audience that is primed to reject alternatives and so easily turns "we're trying to fix Problem X" (caster/martial disparity, for example) into "we're trying to destroy Beloved Thing Y" ("magic that feels magical"/"magic that actually does things" etc.)

Edit: This, incidentally, is one of the few ways in which 5e truly is a compromise edition, rather than "copy 3e, but with most of the worst holes patched up." It reasonably successfully captures some of the PF-style "Archetype" build game, as one can see from all the hand-wringing about things like Hexblade Paladin multiclasses. But, if you saw off the first two levels and do a fair amount of work on the back end as DM, you can finagle a game that reasonably gets people straight to the "you're good at X" and doesn't have too many bizarro exceptions or annoying rules. Especially if you're the kind of DM who would refer to that sort of thing as "building my game with a toolkit" rather than "papering over the holes." (I doubt it's going to surprise anyone that the latter is how I view it.) You get some of the 4e "streamlining" as 5e's designers put it, but some of 3.x's "what do you want to build for?"
 
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And, @EzekielRaiden - for further proof of your point just look at the reception of PF 2e. They tried to cut away the cruft and are having a very uphill battle of it.
Yeah, there's more than one reason I didn't include PF2e, and "I haven't played it myself" was honestly the least among them. Much more important is people saying "they eliminated the bad things, now it sucks."

Which (more for others than for you), I want to be clear: this doesn't mean people want to have options that are terrible. Instead, it's....more like the alleged "JC Penney effect." People want to feel like they've won, for lack of a more subtle way to put it. It feels good to find a bargain--or to find a "powerful" combination. You don't get that feeling when you're told, "Pick whatever you like, it will be good." Nor when you're told, "We cut down on the obvious must-haves," because that sounds like "we took your toys away," not "we wanted real choices, which means comparing things where there isn't a clear best/worst pick."

The irony is that, when called out and isolated as a rules element, nobody likes Prone Shooter (the non-errata one) or Death or Glory. But when you have a vast ruleset full of things that are almost as bad....a bunch of people love it and will die on a hill for it.

Edit: Hell, you can even see this sort of thing in Dreamscarred Press' (Pathfinder) Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might, which explicitly ARE an effort to rebalance the power between casters and martials. Spheres is absolutely chock-full of little bonuses and easy-to-miss interactions. I've personally helped catch some of them in some of the only written guides for Spheres out there--and this is from an author who IS sharp and wise to this sort of thing.

It seems to be something of an axiom that, for a significant portion of D&D's fanbase, you need to have that kind of mix. "Choices" of the form "there are three good options and 17 mostly-bad options," otherwise the game doesn't offer choice. "Alternatives" of the form "these four foos all do bar, but foo#1 is garbage, foo#2 is okay but almost entirely outclassed by foo#3, and foo#4 is bad unless you go for the extra cheese build." "Diversity" of the form "well, these various things all end up giving you pretty much the same bonuses, but their flavor and the precise process of getting those bonuses looks different."

And that's pretty disappointing to me. Because I'd much rather have a game where you have only three good options and have to pick between them, only two alternative foos and neither is cheesy nor outclassed, and diversity in the form of what you choose to do with the Standardized Bonus Pile rather than the way you fill that bonus pile with bonuses.
 
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In Retrospect the worst problem with 4e was 3e.

What happened with 3e was that Hasbro via WotC learned the wrong lesson.

3e threw out the baby with the bathwater. The changed D&D to a completely, and largely incompatible game with both D&D (BX, BECMI, RC) and AD&D. The message was that people LOVED what happened. An audience that was seen to be less than a million players (800K?? or less, maybe even as low as 500K) grew to over 5 million players!
Keep this in mind for a later point. With the decline of TSR, and the terrible late era marketing of lousy bloatware, D&D was in decline.

It appeared that making an edition so absolutely different and incompatible with what came before made it grow.

So they did the same thing with 4e. They learned the lesson with 3e that drastic changes from what used to be the core game previously (even if later supplements hinted at what would occur with 3e, the same way 9 swords indicated what would come with 4e) was massively popular.

People think the edition wars were big with 4e...they never saw how bad they were with 3e. Most of the audience was lost by the later years of 2e (people grew up, didn't have time to play, got bored, moved onto different things, moved onto different rpgs...etc) most of the audience had been lost from AD&D, but, looking at the numbers...3e had TWENTY MILLION LESS players than AD&D and D&D did. (estimated 5 million players of 3.X).
A lot of young people don't understand the phenomenon that D&D was in the late 70's and early 80's. Everybody was playing D&D. There were campaigns running before school during breakfast. Everybody knew about D&D. Even the jocks played on occasion. It was a massive fad. That fad died eventually. It had little to do with anything other than fads do eventually die.

3e to 4e is thought to have only lost 2 to 3 million players. That is still a massive percentage of the players though.

Thing is...they were not wrong.

They did the same thing with 5e.

BUT, it wasn't the change that is the problem. People seem to gobble it up. They don't like something too close to what came before with D&D apparently. 3e to 3.5 didn't bring in more players, nor did 4e to 4e essentials. However, do a change that is very drastic...people seem to love it. 3e gained over 4 million players. 5e has gained over 10 million players. What was different then between how they did 3e/5e and 4e?
3d D&D boomed. Perhaps not to 5e's level but at the time it was considered a massive comeback for D&D. Still compared to the 70s it was nothing. The game got a little bit more popular. Most people at the local high school may have heard of it but never played it.

What was OFF with 4e was the marketing. You normally don't win over people by telling them that they were idiots for playing the older version of the game. People don't appreciate that. They do not appreciate being told the game that they played in the past was horrible and it's now fixed. It's a GOOD way to make people angry at you. It's a good way to make people upset at you.

WotC made ALL THE WRONG MOVES when it announced, advertised, and marketed 4e. That's the BIGGEST problem I see with 4e.
This is true but hardly the reason. You see change can be in a positive direction or a negative one. 3e streamlined a lot about D&D that was bad. It created a bunch of new options. It led eventually to option bloat and fatigue along those lines. Though for some it's near perfect (see the PF crowd). If 5e had followed 3e, they would have done very well. The system does matter as has been said here often.


There is a cadre of people, not insignificant, that when playing a fighter want a simple class that doesn't require a lot of management. Others were hungry for a class with a lot more options that was as complex to play as a spell caster. 5e tried to do that and was mostly successful. If they'd tried just a tiny bit harder they'd have gobbled up the last of the OSR people but they didn't. Still it was successful and from a business model point of view it was a great move.

They learned their lesson and with 5e you saw the exact opposite. Sure, some of the promotion was flat out lies (e.g. you can play this in compatibility with any version of D&D ever, including D&D and RC...etc)...but the idea was to make people who played D&D...any version of D&D...think that they were friendly to them and that they wanted them to play the new version of D&D (5e). Many of the design ideas were already hinted at (as was with 3e with the options books, 4e with the 9 swords) in the essentials lines (backgrounds, sub-classes, etc), but the difference this time was instead of putting down and insulting older editions...they welcomed all comers.

And, I'd say the lesson was well learned. They learned it wasn't the change people hated (and it wasn't, 5e shows that people still love change and incompatibility more than a continuation of rule sets), but the marketing.
So while you make a good point. Don't bash the past. It's good advice. And it didn't help. I don't think most roleplayers are so obsessed with marketing that they'd have rejected a game that suited them for that reason alone.

Now to add to what you are saying about marketing. I think we can all agree, at least mostly, that a modern car is better than a car from 1932. It's objectively better in most ways. I think when you are talking games you can't really have that mentality. A lot of what passes for "modern" game design is just an approach. It's a toolkit of ways of doing things. Is it better objectively? No. How can fun and entertainment be measured objectively? It can't. At least not for most things. I do think we can agree that rolling high against a DC is better than all the THAC0 nonsense. Most OSR games, that are not direct retroclones, reflect that fact.

The fact that there are people out there who enjoy each edition and a variety of clones of all sorts (not just retroclones) is proof that game design is half art and half science.

A great example was an article written about rust monsters and why they were bad in old school D&D. The article while an opinion was written as fact. People don't like this or they like that. People are not uniform. I like rust monsters as they were. I don't mind bad things happening to the group. It all depends on the sort of game you want. Stating things like they are facts and not opinions is ridiculous.
 

Once again, any discussion of editions turns to preferences which get changed to "martial classes weren't supernatural because they were obviously labeled martial".

If you consider powers that could only be used on an arbitrary, limited basis that did things like give a fighter an aura of automatic damage not supernatural, great. For you it wasn't. For me it was. Saying that 3E was a completely different than 2E because they changed the math? Well, I disagree with that. Saying that 5E is practically 4E in sheep's clothing? I don't think you could be much more wrong.

Guess what? We're all right and we're all wrong because there is no "right" answer.

It can be interesting to discuss what we enjoyed and thought worked (or didn't) can be interesting because people enjoy different things. But edition wars? Might as well argue as to whether Alice Cooper* or KISS was better at big hair rock.

*Happened to think of Alice Cooper because I heard an interview with him. Apparently he's been sober a long time and speaks of Alice Cooper as another person, just an act he still enjoys performing. The guy's actually quite religious and has been happily married for a long time.
 

Once again, any discussion of editions turns to preferences which get changed to "martial classes weren't supernatural because they were obviously labeled martial".

If you consider powers that could only be used on an arbitrary, limited basis that did things like give a fighter an aura of automatic damage not supernatural, great. For you it wasn't. For me it was. Saying that 3E was a completely different than 2E because they changed the math? Well, I disagree with that. Saying that 5E is practically 4E in sheep's clothing? I don't think you could be much more wrong.

Guess what? We're all right and we're all wrong because there is no "right" answer.

It can be interesting to discuss what we enjoyed and thought worked (or didn't) can be interesting because people enjoy different things. But edition wars? Might as well argue as to whether Alice Cooper* or KISS was better at big hair rock.

*Happened to think of Alice Cooper because I heard an interview with him. Apparently he's been sober a long time and speaks of Alice Cooper as another person, just an act he still enjoys performing. The guy's actually quite religious and has been happily married for a long time.
I agree with this a lot. I think in the quest for balance everything was on the table for some and not for others. We discovered we engaged the game in different ways. Rules as physics for example.

I've long thought if they'd just added classes without "magical" powers and then rebranded the original classes as having some sort of magic even if it was Ki or Chi, everything would have been fine. That would have meant though more of a 5e approach. Even if some folks thought the non-magical classes were too weak or unbalanced, I don't think some would have cared. The people hating on the AEDU fighters were not the people worried overly much about fighters being inferior to the wizards. So to me the answer was give both sides what they want!
 

I agree with this a lot. I think in the quest for balance everything was on the table for some and not for others. We discovered we engaged the game in different ways. Rules as physics for example.

I've long thought if they'd just added classes without "magical" powers and then rebranded the original classes as having some sort of magic even if it was Ki or Chi, everything would have been fine. That would have meant though more of a 5e approach. Even if some folks thought the non-magical classes were too weak or unbalanced, I don't think some would have cared. The people hating on the AEDU fighters were not the people worried overly much about fighters being inferior to the wizards. So to me the answer was give both sides what they want!
I think 4E had some good, even great, ideas. It just always felt half baked to me. I'm glad they brought some stuff along into 5E.
 

4e, despite being a rather good, fun game on a fundamental level, had no path to success because it changed too much. Customers have expectations, often completely unspoken, and when you fail to meet them, they get upset. It's not always about whether your product refresh is "good" or "bad." The people who didn't like it have a million different reasons for why they didn't, and most of them boil down to, "It's not what I expected."

It was New Coke, or the Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker, or a variety of other products that were plenty good when considered in isolation, but, because they were built on a legacy brand with years and years of building certain expectations behind them, disappointed the marketplace and failed.
 

They learned their lesson and with 5e you saw the exact opposite. Sure, some of the promotion was flat out lies (e.g. you can play this in compatibility with any version of D&D ever, including D&D and RC...etc)...but the idea was to make people who played D&D...any version of D&D...think that they were friendly to them and that they wanted them to play the new version of D&D (5e).

People wonder why software developers and the like refuse to talk about the product early on. One major reason is design goals change throughout the course of development, but people who got enthusiastic about earlier stated goals that later proved unworkable will see them as broken promises.

That said, I run a lot of B/X and AD&D modules in 5e with no prior conversion work. Takes a bit of finesse, but overall works ok.
 

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