D&D General Nolzur creates inclusive miniatures, people can't handle it.

[Raiztt]

No, what is hypocritical is you (general you from here on out) completely ignoring that low STR/CON PC's trouble to try to walk through 2 feet of mud but all the sudden crying "realism" to punish someone in a wheelchair.

FWIW, I would consider 2 feet of mud to be impassible terrain even for those with full use of their legs.

 

[Autumnal]

I didn't read every single post in this thread, just the first couple pages then skimmed from there. Has any player that has a wheel chair chimed in yet?

I can walk, but personally if I lost my ability to stand and walk I would want to continue playing characters that can walk. I prefer playing characters that aren't like I am in real life. I'm curious if players in wheel chairs would enjoy playing a character that's also in a wheel chair, even when the option to not require one is presented.

I do. I haven’t continuously, but did in my teens thanks to a sudden autoimmune trouble, recovered some, used a cane on and off for the next several decades, and then have used a chair the last several years thanks to the even more sudden onset of a different problem. (Orthostatic hypotension. Don’t ask for it by name, or at all: having your blood pressure drop 70-100 pts in the first 5 seconds after you stand up really sucks.)

As with @Umbran ’s brother, the possibility of characters with wheelchairs never came up, but certainly my self-insert daydreams and fanfic revolved heavily around healthy versions of myself. In the last decade or so, though, my imaginarium has stretched to include and even favor inclusion of access without miracle cures and such. I’m intrigued by the possibilities for experiencing exotic environments and dramatic circumstances while still dealing with some of the challenges I face in real life, or ones inspired by what friends and others deal with.

I’ve been thinking about it since this thread started, and I’m realizing how much the sheer passage of time contributes. I started gaming at 13, and was already reading a lot of genre fiction by then. I turned 58 earlier this month, and still read a lot of it. (More horror than f/sf these days, but still the mix.) You can never really exhaust the potential of good major dramatic elements in a genre, but you can exhaust their possibilities until the next major infusion of fresh ideas. A lot of people got there with zombies, and because I am a kindly soul, I won’t give you an essay on the topic. I’m there with “like me, or at least like my mind and outlook” characters who are healthy and generally unchallenged by anything that would push the boundaries of acceptable for their society.

By contrast, imaginary worlds with characters who are marked and marginalized in ways that echo the experiences I have, or those of people who matter to me, is still largely terra incognito. This is doubly true for works created by people who live with such things themselves, and come from backgrounds that are themselves significantly different from mine. Bringing that into gaming is Really Cool and makes a lot of stale things fresh again for me.

If I had spent those decades with disabled and marginalized characters, I assume I’d probably welcome shifting to more healthy ones for the same reason. Thirty or forty years is a long time to spend with a set of tropes. But I did it thst way then, so now I’m enjoying it this way.

 

[RhaezDaevan]

??? Require characters to use wheelchairs? No, nobody is arguing that gamers with disabilities should be forced to play characters with disabilities. If that's what you are asking.

Some of us are happy that disabled gamers are getting some representation in the game. Some of us are more concerned with wheelchairs somehow breaking our immersion and less concerned with supporting inclusion for disabled gamers. (my bias might be showing here)

Some disabled gamers would prefer to play fully abled characters. Others LOVE the idea of being able to play a character with similar (or different) disabilities. Some fully abled gamers are interested in exploring a character with a disability. It's all good. But it helps to have representation in rules, art, and miniatures to enable this to happen easily.

Oh, I never had any thoughts on someone in a wheel chair being forced to play a character that's also in a wheel chair. I am skeptical on the number of players, disabled or not, that would want to play such a character. It's fine as an option though. Anyone know the sales numbers for those minis?

I also wonder if a player chose to play a character in a wheel chair, would it be offensive for the DM to provide ways in game to remove the disability in some way? A magic belt or a special healing potion, or some such.

 

[RhaezDaevan]

I do. I haven’t continuously, but did in my teens thanks to a sudden autoimmune trouble, recovered some, used a cane on and off for the next several decades, and then have used a chair the last several years thanks to the even more sudden onset of a different problem. (Orthostatic hypotension. Don’t ask for it by name, or at all: having your blood pressure drop 70-100 pts in the first 5 seconds after you stand up really sucks.)

As with @Umbran ’s brother, the possibility of characters with wheelchairs never came up, but certainly my self-insert daydreams and fanfic revolved heavily around healthy versions of myself. In the last decade or so, though, my imaginarium has stretched to include and even favor inclusion of access without miracle cures and such. I’m intrigued by the possibilities for experiencing exotic environments and dramatic circumstances while still dealing with some of the challenges I face in real life, or ones inspired by what friends and others deal with.

I’ve been thinking about it since this thread started, and I’m realizing how much the sheer passage of time contributes. I started gaming at 13, and was already reading a lot of genre fiction by then. I turned 58 earlier this month, and still read a lot of it. (More horror than f/sf these days, but still the mix.) You can never really exhaust the potential of good major dramatic elements in a genre, but you can exhaust their possibilities until the next major infusion of fresh ideas. A lot of people got there with zombies, and because I am a kindly soul, I won’t give you an essay on the topic. I’m there with “like me, or at least like my mind and outlook” characters who are healthy and generally unchallenged by anything that would push the boundaries of acceptable for their society.

By contrast, imaginary worlds with characters who are marked and marginalized in ways that echo the experiences I have, or those of people who matter to me, is still largely terra incognito. This is doubly true for works created by people who live with such things themselves, and come from backgrounds that are themselves significantly different from mine. Bringing that into gaming is Really Cool and makes a lot of stale things fresh again for me.

If I had spent those decades with disabled and marginalized characters, I assume I’d probably welcome shifting to more healthy ones for the same reason. Thirty or forty years is a long time to spend with a set of tropes. But I did it thst way then, so now I’m enjoying it this way.

Wow, thank you for sharing. Glad to see some true insight instead of all the speculation.

 

[Autumnal]

Glad to help. With the important reminder that this is one person’s experience, shape by race, gender, class, and so on as well as the complexities of individual life. Others will tell you other things and they’re as right as I am.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Aka can't see the newsprint of J Johan Jefferson writing editorials against her, but in combat not really blind. AKA not really blind when it matters.

 

[RhaezDaevan]

Glad to help. With the important reminder that this is one person’s experience, shape by race, gender, class, and so on as well as the complexities of individual life. Others will tell you other things and they’re as right as I am.

When a topic is discussed that involves a group of people, I tend to value the words of someone in that group over someone outside it. Not that the other people should be ignored or silenced, just that the insider view is more valuable.

 

[Dire Bare]

Oh, I never had any thoughts on someone in a wheel chair being forced to play a character that's also in a wheel chair. I am skeptical on the number of players, disabled or not, that would want to play such a character. It's fine as an option though. Anyone know the sales numbers for those minis?

I also wonder if a player chose to play a character in a wheel chair, would it be offensive for the DM to provide ways in game to remove the disability in some way? A magic belt or a special healing potion, or some such.

Sorry I misunderstood you initially.

Some folks like to play characters very different from themselves, others like to play characters that mirror aspects of their own lives. That's true for the abled and disabled. The option needs to be there. It's also about representation . . . folks who are marginalized, including those with disabilities, need to feel included, they need to feel seen. So, if you are in a wheelchair in real life, would rather play a fully abled character, you can still appreciate artwork and miniatures depicting fantasy adventurers in wheelchairs . . . or dealing with other sorts of disabilities. In the same way that an African-American gamer would probably love to see more dark-skinned adventurers in D&D's artwork. We have a new autistic character in the upcoming Deck of Many Thing boxed set, which has a lot of folks on the spectrum excited to be represented in the game!

In game, if a character is disabled, should the DM "fix" the character? Not without the player's input, NO. If the player expresses an interest in acquiring a magic item or spell to cure or compensate for the disability, sure. But that has to come from the player, not the DM.

 

[Umbran]

Have you shown him the minis? (I'm hoping he's still around or else I'll feel like a dick)

He's no longer with us, but no need to feel bad. I wasn't putting emphasis on that bit.

 

[RhaezDaevan]

He's no longer with us, but no need to feel bad. I wasn't putting emphasis on that bit.

Sorry for your loss. Too bad he didn't get to see them, even if he chose not to use them.