D&D 5E Non choices: must have and wants why someone that hates something must take it

yeah but wouldnt it be cool to play that character concept and not be gimped. its not an either or proposition...

see this is the problem... the concept doesn't have to be gimped if it isn't the single most optimal... there can be a range.


if every PC had a power score from 1-100, and optimal was 100, but average was 90, and you could be +-10 and still be good enough, then you really have a non gimped 80-100... saying 97 is gimped is crazy.

In 4e a 14th level character is half way through his career at max (how ever most people don't get to 30) and a +1 to hit is just not that big a deal over that time...

In 5e/Next the difference between having ray of frost at level 10 2d8 or cross bow 1d8+dex mod when both are very likely similar to hit but one has more then 5x the range...especially since you will have plenty of spells after level 5 that you wont need to default to them that often...
 

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Did y ever play AD&D with racial class limits? I did. While I didn't play singleclassed non-humans in truly suboptimal classes (say, limited to 10th level or lower), I DID play multiclassed PCs who hit level limits.

Didn't bother me at all.

If our 1e game from last year picks up again, that's going to be a major issue for one of the characters and a minor issue for the other. The half-orc already hit both classes' level limits. Forced retirement or unavoidable death*? My half-elf has one class as thief and I cranked the numbers in advance to know he's got another six levels or so before as a character he might start feeling inadequate for the missions at hand and that retiring to live off his wealth might be a smart enough choice that even he would take it.


*Assuming the DM doesn't kill the level limits first.
 
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yeah but wouldnt it be cool to play that character concept and not be gimped. its not an either or proposition...

There ARE systems in which I could play armored arcanists and not seem gimped*, but D&D isn't one of them. It is one of the things that distinguishes it from other FRPGs. Complaining about that is like complaining that the RPG Talisanta doesn't have elves. Wouldn't it be nice to play elves in Talisanta?

IOW, there are plenty of FRPGs that allow you to play armored mages; find one and be happy!








* and even then, you're probably allocating some kind of character building resource away from being a pure spellcaster in order to wield better weapons and wear standard armors.
 

If he was a newbie, where was the guidance from experienced players? If he was experienced, this was entirely forseeable and his own fault.

Did y ever play AD&D with racial class limits? I did. While I didn't play singleclassed non-humans in truly suboptimal classes (say, limited to 10th level or lower), I DID play multiclassed PCs who hit level limits.

Didn't bother me at all.
most of the time we ignored level limits (and let both demi and humans multi or duil) how ever the 2 times we did use the rules it lead to problems.

one time stands out, Larry ran a game where we had a human fighter and a hafling fighter when the later hit level limit he wanted to change his character to a human fighter of equal level and the DM told him his rule was if you start a new character for no reason you start at level 1, if you die you start a new character at lowest level character-1
 

I would rather success come from from what we, the players, decide to do and how we go about it than from whatever build options we choose. If the system doesn't support good play being the largest determining factor in success then it can shove off.

How do we assess this? Can a 1st level character succeed over a 21st level character? If not, does that mean that good play is not the largest determining factor in success? If we are all 1st level, so we remove that aspect, and we roll dice for our attributes, who will be more successful, the fellow with below average, average or above average rolls? Is judicious resource selection not part of good play? Is "picking the right spells to memorize and the right time to cast them" good play, but "adding the right spells to my spell book" not good play?

I would also suggest that the greater the variance in effectiveness of choices the player must make for their character, the more build, and not play, determines success. Moving the game more to "play decisions" and less to "build decisions" requires reducing the choices and/or equalizing the choices. If every character has the same stats, then decisions in play become much more significant as the determinant of success, don't they?

The player should be the one to make the decision on how to allocate character resources for each pillar at creation and level up. If the player wants to create a 'do nothing but combat' Fighter they should have the options to do so. If they want to create a 'good at combat, but swashbuckling charismatic sailor' they should be able to do that too, via choices at character creation and level up.

The default should be close to even in all three pillars, then players can choose to deviate from there. Templates could even be created that allow them to quickly pick a character type that adheres to one or two pillars and ignores the remaining pillars. However at all times it should be the players choice and not the games choice. You should never hear "Well, I want to play a Fighter so I guess I'm only good in combat and can't do anything in the social or exploration pillars." That should just not happen, instead we should hear: "Well, I want to play a Fighter so I guess I need to pick these options to be good at the <combat/social/exploration> pillar."

I think there should be defaults to and I also think the defaults shouldn't stray too far from the 33% in each pillar paradigm. Where I disagree is that players should be able to go 0% in one pillar in order to go 66% in another. It should be up to them.

I think another issue to consider here is the target audience. An experienced player can likely look at the default, look at his options, and decide "I am OK sucking on ice at social interaction to be a Combat Wombat. I will sell out social skills for combat ability." A rookie player seems much more likely to focus in on one area and short change another if the rules do not give very clear guidance. I don't think you or I are the target market. We're gaming already. But for D&D (and gaming in general) to survive and thrive, it needs to attract new gamers, who build their first character and have a blast playing the game. If they get sucked in to building a character who excels in one area (and overcomes challenges in that area with ease) and sucks in other areas (so experiences some combination of boredom and frustration facing those challenges), he's probably back to spending his recreational time and discretionary dollars on some other hobby or pastime. Me and me 20+ year gaming group probably don't care - until the market shrivels up enough that we're not getting anything new published, anyway. But the business - the publishers - they need to care about those first-time gamers.

I'd rather it not be silo'd off into an optional module. I have a feeling those are going to not be very well tested or make very large changes to the game. It should be designed into the default game so that it can be fully tested before release.

I thought we already established your preferred default was close to even across all three pillars. That said, of course, the game could certainly provide the defaults and options for deviating from them in the core rules. However, I think it is important to clearly communicate the risks and possible impacts on your character, and on the game, of deviating from the defaults. Now, maybe that means the core rules suggest about equal resources, allow for tradeoffs to each pillar being between 25% and 50%, and provide modularization for going beyond that, or maybe they provide a default of "equal", optional rules for tradeoffs and clear cautions about where the design of the game assumes those tradeoffs will cap out, and what going beyond those assumptions is likely to cause. But I don't think they can playtest "everyone is even in all pillars" and "some guys are 100%/0/0" effectively, or design a game that works equally well around either of the two as a standard/default. Do you consider that viable?

Because PC design is, mechanically, all about the allocation of scarce resources, and weapon choices & the like are resources in D&D. And not all choices are equal.

So why include lots of different weapon choices if we know from the start only a few will really be viable? Some, of course, are viable only with resources invested, so that creates a tradeoff (do I take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, or enhance my skill with a martial weapon? do I use a one handed weapon or forego the shield for more damage?). But if we have a martial weapon that does higher damage at greater reach with the same critical as a longsword, say, why should anyone use a longsword?

Most of the weapons were real world, but few were used at the same time in the real world. When the Romans developed metalworking to be able to make short swords, they ruled the world. Who would use a short sword in King Arthur's time? Or in Renaissance Italy? Who uses bows today? Not anyone who can access a gun! If some weapons are clearly superior, then the others should logically be doomed to obscurity. Especially in a game where the time required to train with a more sophisticated weapon isn't really factored in.

There are plenty of fighter feats out there. At low levels, a power attack and monkey grip are mechanically similar.** As you level up, though, power attack is obviously mechanically superior. But only monkey grip lets you use an oversized weapon. For some, that tradeoff is worth it, for some it isn't.

Power Attack in 3.5 or the significantly modified Power Attack in Pathfinder? To me, if one feat is so clearly superior that, from that myriad of possible choices, over half the fighters pick this one, then it's pretty overpowered.

But I tell you what- they're cool to play! The look on everyone's face when your 1st level PHB sorcerer in scale mail with a maul advances to one end of a skirmish line...and breathes lightning at the foes, killing most of them?

If he's one shotting the encounter, leaving the rest of the PC's to clean up after him, I find it difficult to see how he is underpowered.
 

There ARE systems in which I could play armored arcanists and not seem gimped*, but D&D isn't one of them. It is one of the things that distinguishes it from other FRPGs. Complaining about that is like complaining that the RPG Talisanta doesn't have elves. Wouldn't it be nice to play elves in Talisanta?

IOW, there are plenty of FRPGs that allow you to play armored mages; find one and be happy!


* and even then, you're probably allocating some kind of character building resource away from being a pure spellcaster in order to wield better weapons and wear standard armors.

I would actually agree with the majority of this post. Though, having my response to nearly every D&D discussion being "well, maybe try playing a different rpg" doesn't really generate conversation. It also paints me as a fanboy of those other games -which I most certainly am, but I would prefer to engage in discussion of a game and figure out how a game could possibly be better rather than just tell someone they're 'doing it wrong.' I feel that's healthier for the hobby, discussion among the community, and for the evolution of rpgs going forward.

It also helps me to increase my own knowledge of games so that I can help newer players in the groups I game with, and because I like to have actual experience with a subject (such as a particular game) before criticizing it or commenting on it rather than just blindly making statements about it without any actual experience with it (as I've often seen done on various fora.)


If he was a newbie, where was the guidance from experienced players? If he was experienced, this was entirely forseeable and his own fault.

Did y ever play AD&D with racial class limits? I did. While I didn't play singleclassed non-humans in truly suboptimal classes (say, limited to 10th level or lower), I DID play multiclassed PCs who hit level limits.

Didn't bother me at all.


I never played AD&D, so I cannot comment on that.

As for the 4E example, we didn't know (at the time) what he had picked, but the idea of a dwarf warlord using an axe didn't seem to be an odd D&D concept. It wasn't until I started noticing that he was really struggling (and not enjoying the game) that I took a look at what was going on. The only reason I really noticed at all is because I was also playing a Warlord at the time (I typically do when playing 4E,) and it seemed really odd during sessions that he was missing things that I was easily hitting. Even at that point, the reason I was able to help was due to being very experienced with the class he was playing and being moderately experienced with the system we were playing at that point in time. Had it happened earlier in my experience with 4E, I doubt the group would have had any idea what was going on. It was (like 5th will be when it's released) a system we had never played before, and it was different enough from the previous system that our assumptions concerning play, class power, and various other things could not be applied.

What are your feelings toward the other examples I put forward? As I said earlier, "sub-optimal" doesn't exactly cover some of what I'm trying to say.
 
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I would be totally cool with a D&D where you merely select a background for your character, and none of the future progression of the character's abilities is fixed. Want to learn magic? Find a lost grimoire or scroll, sit down and study, and there you go. Want to be a badass warrior? Seek out the peerless knight of the Realm, impress him, and he'll teach you how to master the sword.

We already play this way with DnD.

Organic character development.

IMHO.
 

Anyway, our barbarian has been complaining about:
(A) the combat encounters beeing too easy.
(B) his character lacking competence in non-combat encounters.

When he entered the campaign and rolled up the Barbarian, he said (C) that he was going to concentrate on damage over everything else.

Said player just cannot see the connection between (A) , (B) and (C), even when it is pointed out to him... ;) ;)

Yeah, there's something to be said for being clear about playstles up front! Barbarian-player might have thought he was going into a game where combat is basically what happens.

Tuft said:
I so hope they do, and don't chicken out on it.

Yeah, I'll be really quite disappointed if 5e is a game about combat encounter chains and not about adventures.
 

We already play this way with DnD.

Organic character development.

IMHO.
Could you explain what you mean, and how you implement this procedure? I'm always interested to compare and contrast with my own solutions.
 

So why include lots of different weapon choices if we know from the start only a few will really be viable?

Choice.

Just because something isn't "viable" doesn't mean that someone won't play it. I myself have played a geriatric- yes, with the age modifiers to stats- Ranger who used a quarterstaff & sling. She was a former advernturer now granny returning to action because some orcs wiped out her family while she was out getting water. She couldn't afford the encumbrance of a walking stick AND a bunch of metal weapons.

Some, of course, are viable only with resources invested, so that creates a tradeoff (do I take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, or enhance my skill with a martial weapon? do I use a one handed weapon or forego the shield for more damage?). But if we have a martial weapon that does higher damage at greater reach with the same critical as a longsword, say, why should anyone use a longsword?

1) in all probability, such a weapon is a polearm and requires 2 hands. If the PC wants to use a sword or wand in the off-hand, then a longsword it is.

2) roleplay- my Marshal2/Duskblade2/Battle Sorcerer6 w/Stalwart Sorcerer ACF uses a longsword both because he uses a shield in his off-hand but also because he is a member of the Illuminated Society of Thoth, whose "...members favor the use of straight, double-edged blades of all kinds as the embodiment of the common aphorism, "knowledge is a double-edged sword."

Who uses bows today? Not anyone who can access a gun!
This is demonstrably false. Bow hunting is a huge sport.

Bows and crossbows also have the advantage of silence.


Power Attack in 3.5 or the significantly modified Power Attack in Pathfinder? To me, if one feat is so clearly superior that, from that myriad of possible choices, over half the fighters pick this one, then it's pretty overpowered.

3.5Ed.

And I agree with your assessment of the feat's mechanical power. Yet PA has rarely been chosen by more than half of those PCs in our group with warrior levels. (And I prefer MG, since, as stated, I don't need the 13 strength to get the same power boost.)

Why? Because it didn't fit PC concepts and/or builds. If you want to be a Kensai, for instance, Power Attack is useful, but you need other Feats to qualify. Ditto if you want to be a tripper/disarmer.

If he's one shotting the encounter, leaving the rest of the PC's to clean up after him, I find it difficult to see how he is underpowered.
Actually, he was doing the clean-up...or more accurately, the kill-stealing,

But even so, at 1st level, he could only do that so many times before that ability was utterly exhausted. Then he'd be down to his Sorcerer's BAB for melee attacks.

Besides, as any spellcasting optimizer will tell you, dealing damage is the least efficient way to defeat foes as an arcanist. AND woe betide them if something were immune to- or healed by- electrical attacks. (This PC was the electrical equivalent of the pyro mentioned upthread: besides channeling spells into a draconic lightning breath weapon, almost all of his attack spells were electrical/lightning based.)
 
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