Non-combat, non-magic feats: Why are there no good ones?

[Luddite]

To reply to Luddite, I don't really mean social feats, though. Your point about different types of games having different types of action is quite valid, but just because the bulk of D&D's action is combat-based doesn't mean that all feats have to be action-based.

I use the term action to mean more "Some type of activity covered within the rules."

Feats that let you do nifty stuff . . . like the ability to shapeshift into a small animal at will, or to enter the dreams of others (without having to use spells). These could all be cool abilities, and as long as they can't harm others, they could be represented by feats instead of spells and such. I'm saying that I want feats that let you do things that are interesting. A lot of low-key magic effects could be better modeled as feats, in my opinion.

I do agree with you. A feat could be some type of inherient Magical or Special Ability. But there is already some type of "rule" in place so that these abilities make sences. Shapechanging into animals is doable since we have rules for "What is Animal?" As for "low-key magic effects" we have rules for Magic to base these feats.

We can easily create more feats without diminishing the game.

So my question to you is : Are you annoyed the WotC isn't putting much effort in to non-combat feats? Or is it that, in general, designers tend to focus on Combat feats?

-The Luddite

 

[Nightfall]

Ranger man, might want to look at some of the feats in R&R2. Admittedly not ALL of them are non combat/non magic but you might find a few you like.

 

[BluWolf]

Thank you Luddite

I think you Luddite expands upon my earlier point perfectly.

Outside of combat and crafting item actions the "rules" STS of 3E are pretty vague.

Example;
Can you own a castle in 3E? Yes.

Ok, what does that mean? It means you own a castle that is worth X number of GPs with Y number of servants.

Ok, so that means I have X less amount of gold to buy nifty items and stuff and I have a place to hang my hat. What else does it mean?

It means you hold the fielty of the commoners within your dominion.

How many? I don't know...say 280.

Did you make that up? Yes. How? I don't know it sounds reasonable.............

And so and so on. The problem with taking feats that would influence these sort of sceanrios is the mechanics that govern this sort interaction don't exist.

So if the DM is doing this sort of thing on the fly then most likely the feasts that influence them are never taken into consideration. There is no reason for a player to take them.

 

[Reynard]

Re: Thank you Luddite

And so and so on. The problem with taking feats that would influence these sort of sceanrios is the mechanics that govern this sort interaction don't exist.

So if the DM is doing this sort of thing on the fly then most likely the feasts that influence them are never taken into consideration. There is no reason for a player to take them.

Wouldn't the problem, then, be that companies are not expanding the mechanical base of D&D/d20, rather than a lack of feats? After all, if a feat cannot exist until there is a system to tie it to, then the argument becomes rather circular. So, why not tell Green Ronin, FFG, or Mongoose to put out a d20 book that is nothing but Social Skills ("The Qunitessential Diplomat"?) or fantasy economics ("Path of the Coin"?)

I think those are both perfectly reasonable ideas for supplements. However, is there enough interest? Who knows. That is what market research is for.

 

[BluWolf]

I think those are both perfectly reasonable ideas for supplements. However, is there enough interest? Who knows. That is what market research is for.

On this point Reynard I follow you. I think there is a market of people out there that would be intrested in this sort of stuff. However, I think it is a smalller subset than the average player.

It all depends on what you want out of your games. Sometimes I want the incredibly involved longterm campaign with NPCs by Tolstoy and plot by Machiavelli (sp?).

Other times, I just want to see goblins bleed.

Oh and yes, I do think that some companies are missing an opportunity to expand the core. But for how long who knows.

 

[LufiaLillystorm]

Frustration = Fun ?? nah

I like the feat Lasting Intimidation ^_^ btw That is neat *hugs* good one love.

Alrighty..time to share.

I play DnD and it is one of the few games that I play. I find that a lot of times things are just too spelled out. I only buy the core books phb, mm, and dmg because otherwise it is too inclusive.

If you want Horse Fu?? Then express to your DM that you want to take up horse training and that you want to work with your horse and try to make a connection with him. Slowly over time you would gain that type of ability (I know it was a silly example (the feat) but it was easy to refrense)

My LARGEST problem with players is that they want to BuY things they don't want to do anything. They don't feel their character goes beyond what is written on taht sheet. If you DON"T have Intimidate then you are not intimidating!!

Any system can be anythign you want it to be because it is based on imagination. Ravenloft can be filled with bunny's if I give myself a reason and remain consistant with game play.

Why are there not Social Feats? lol because if there were you would be rolling your gosh darn dice for EVERYTHING! Just because the book focuses on Combat doesn't mean the adventures have to but LIFE or DEATH tends to be an iffy subject.

Example: If a char gets hit with a sword and he says NO! it would miss me because of my ARMOR CLASS!!! I can be like "Simma down.. p 124 says that I get a +2 and a+3 and 9348943 to damage" and he would have to agree because it is all fleshed out and there is little room for question.

Social situations are important but tend not to be life or death. And if they ARE there are things there to help ie skills and feats. True there could be more, but not too many more.

Picture this: My char wants to be FUNNY~ but I don't want to role play being funny. HA I don';t want to think of jokes or try to amuse people...so I need help because I just want to buy my way through it. I take "Humorus Gesture" which gives me +3 to cha bonus when trying to do a comitic act as I incorporate gestures that partain to teh joke. "Contagious Laugh" which causes my laughter to have a 25% to cause another person to laugh along with me when truely laughing and finally "Witty Remark" that allows my character to make a Reflex save to be able to respond to a statement with a funny statement.

-_- Do you see where we get burried? As a DM I can't deal with that. If I place most of the numbers into combat THAT is somethign I can effect. Then I can leave the rest..which would be ROLE PLAYING to role playing rather then roll playing...

I hope I got my point across...you don't need fantsy feats or magic numbers or dice ALL the time you can make your character something through working with your char.

 

[the Jester]

First off, LufiaLillystorm, glad you like the lasting intimidation feat I wrote up!

Here are a few more I have in my campaign; many are "bardic" feats, which allow a bard to use their bardic music in new ways (something I was very surprised not to see in S&S, but hey, what can you do). Also, some of these were created by others back in the Eric Noah days, but darned if I know exactly whom. Finally, some are regional feats but would be easy to adapt.

ANIMAL SONG (Bardic)
Animals love your music and will follow you around for it.
Prerequisite: Handle Animal skill, Bardic Music ability
Benefit: You can use your bardic music to enchant animals. Treat this as an animal friendship spell, except that you cannot teach animals tricks (though you can use handle animal on them) and you can only have a number of HD of animals enchanted equal to your Cha bonus at any one time.

COLLEGE EDUCATED (Regional: Tirchond)
You have gone to school at a prestigious institution of learning, such as the Silver College or one of its outgrowths.
Prerequisites: 1st level, native of Tirchond
Benefit: Knowledge is a class skill. Choose one knowledge skill; you gain a +2 bonus on that skill. Also, you may have your level +4 ranks in knowledge skills.
Normal: The maximum number of ranks you may have in a class skill is your level +3.

ENCORE (General)
You are good at picking up a performance where you left off.
Prerequisites: Bardic music ability
Benefit: When performing bardic music you can stop and then resume a performance within a number of rounds equal to your charisma bonus without it counting as a second use of your bardic music ability. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to your charisma bonus.

INSPIRE FEAR (Bardic)
Your bardic music can frighten and disturb.
Prerequisites: Cha 15+, Bardic Music ability, perform (7 ranks)
Benefit: As a form of bardic music you can inspire fear in all creatures within 5’ times your perform check. All creatures gain Will saves (DC13+ your Cha bonus) to negate the effect. Those failing are shaken and suffer a -2 morale penalty to attacks, saves and checks. Allies get z +2 circumstance bonus on this save and are totally unaffected if under the influence of your inspire confidence ability. Using this feat is a supernatural, mind-affecting fear ability.

LIGHT SLEEPER (General)
You don’t need much sleep and are much more flexible about your sleep cycle than most people.
Prerequisites: Con 11+, Wis 11+, Endurance
Benefit: You only need ¾ the normal amount of sleep for your race. You can also spread your sleep out into blocks throughout the day rather than needing uninterrupted rest. You can sleep despite noise or physical discomfort but even while asleep your subconscious remains alert for danger, making any listen checks normally (with no circumstance penalty for being asleep).
Special: Elves cannot take this feat as they do not sleep.

LINGUIST (General)
You have a natural talent for languages.
Benefit: Speak Language is a class skill for you. In addition, you learn one language for free upon taking this feat.

LULLABY (Bardic)
You can lull animals and many monsters to sleep with your gentle songs.
Prerequisites: Bardic Music ability, perform (6 ranks)
Benefit: You can use your bardic music to lull to sleep most creatures. This is a mind-affecting sonic ability, and it will not affect oozes, deaf creatures, creatures without intelligence scores, or creatures that are deeply distracted.
You choose one target, which receives a Will save (DC 13+ cha bonus) to avoid the effect. Lullaby counts as one use of your bardic music for the day. You target must hear you sing for a full round; if it fails its saving throw it falls into a deep sleep for as long as you keep singing the lullaby and for 1 round/bard level thereafter. A creature that saves is immune to your Lullaby for 24 hours.

MARATHON (General)
You can run for hours on end.
Prerequisites: Endurance, Run
Benefit: You may hustle instead of walk while traveling and may run with the usual penalties for hustling.

MASTERFUL PERFORMANCE (Bardic)
You can pour your heart and soul into a performance.
Prerequisites: Bardic Music ability, perform (4 ranks)
Benefit: You can use one bardic music use to gain a +4 bonus on your perform check.

MELODY OF THE FREE MIND (Bardic)
Your bardic music can break enchantments.
Prerequisites: Bardic Music ability, perform (8 ranks)
Benefit: Any ally who hears you perform the Melody of the Free Mind is allowed a second saving throw against any enchantment she fails her save against on her next turn, just as a rogue with slippery mind would. While you could conceivably begin singing after someone has failed her first saving throw, you would have to start before a round passes and the opportunity for her to attempt a second once passes. Allies making a second saving throw get a morale bonus equal to ¼ your bard level. A rogue who has the slippery mind ability can make a total of three saves if she also hears the Melody of the Free Mind. You may maintain the melody for up to 10+ your cha bonus rounds. This is a mind-affecting sonic supernatural ability.

POWERFUL VOICE (General)
Your voice is powerful and carries much better than most.
Prerequisites: Cha 13+, Bardic Music ability, perform (6 ranks), True Tone
Benefit: Your bardic music works at double the normal range.

RAISED IN THE LIGHT (Regional- Forinthia)
You were raised in a devout Galadorian home.
Prerequisites: 1st level, native of Forinthia
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on knowledge (religion) checks and a +2 (unnamed) bonus on Will saves against compulsions.

RIDDLEMASTER (General)
Your mind works quickly on puzzles and riddles.
Prerequisites: Int 13+
Benefit: Whenever you are presented with a puzzle or riddle with a time limit, you are considered to think extremely quickly and are allowed one and a half times the allotted time. Whenever presented with a non-timed riddle or puzzle you are allowed one free mistake (your subconscious warns you just before you actually make the mistake). This feat doesn’t help you with traps, locks, etc. without puzzles or riddles as part of them.

SALESMAN (Regional: Pesh)
You could sell a drink to a beer elemental.
Prerequisites: 1st level, Peshan
Benefits: You get a +2 bonus to Appraise and Diplomacy checks.


SEXY (General)
You are attractive to those of similar race and (usually) opposite gender.
Prerequisites: Cha 13+
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on bluff, diplomacy and perform checks against members of your race and the appropriate sexual orientation. Against members of the appropriate sexual orientation of races with which you can interbreed you get a +1 bonus to bluff, diplomacy and perform checks.

SOLDIERS’ MARCH (Bardic)
Your music can inspire your allies and yourself to move further and faster on the road.
Prerequisites: Cha 13+, Bardic Music ability, perform (6 ranks)
Benefits: You can use your bardic music to encourage quick travel, allowing your group to hustle for up to your Cha bonus in hours per day. You can also give a +2 morale bonus to Con checks for forced marches. Soldiers’ March counts as one use of your bardic music ability for every two hours of use. This is a supernatural sonic mind-affecting ability.

TRUE TONE (General)
Your voice is well-trained and you have perfect pitch.
Prerequisites: Cha 13+, Bardic Music ability, perform (6 ranks)
Benefit: Your voice is a masterwork instrument, giving you a +2 circumstance bonus on any perform checks with a vocal component. (This will not stack with the +2 circumstance bonus you receive for playing another masterwork instrument.)

VEHEMENCE OF SPEECH (General)
You can rally others against your favored enemies.
Prerequisites: Favored enemy
Benefit: You gain your favored enemy bonus on diplomacy and intimidate checks used to persuade or incite others against them (for example, to incite a lynching).

VIRTUOSO (General)
You have a great talent for one specific type of performance.
Prerequisites: Perform skill
Benefit: You get a +4 competence bonus to a specific type of perform check.


Obviously, some of these are simple mechanical bonuses to skills and the like, but overall I think they fit a more socially oriented game rather than being combat-based. Hope you all like 'em.

 

[GravyFingerz]

I much prefer

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
Your touch is the equivalent of coinage.
Benefit: By slamming your fist into the side of a coin-operated mechanical device, you can activate it, even if you didn't put any coins in.

I may have so steal that

 

[Pielorinho]

Here are a few more I have in my campaign; many are "bardic" feats, which allow a bard to use their bardic music in new ways (something I was very surprised not to see in S&S, but hey, what can you do).

These are fantastic, Jester! If you listen carefully, you'll hear the *YOINK* as I nab these for my campaign.

Thanks!
Daniel

 

[kenjib]

Plus with what Breakdaddy already mentioned about the Mercenaries book, I'd say AEG is making a concerted effort to give the non-combat feats a helpful boost. Kudos to them for trying!!

You haven't even brought Swashbuckling Adventurers into the equation yet either. It's got an interesting hubris/flaw section which looks like it could have a lot of potential. Has anyone tried this out yet?

If I recall correctly, they are basically little character traits that the DM or other characters can call into play once per session. One of them, for instance, allows the player to gain romantic attractions. Imagine the DM pulling that hubris out when the group confronts an enemy or is held captive by the same. Things could quickly become quite interesting...

It seems like they not only give players benefits but also help define characters, make them unique, and move the plot along in interesting ways.

As far as magical abilities, I'm not all too much in favor of that. As it is, there are only three classes in D&D that don't have any magical powers and only four that don't outright cast spells. The majority of PRCs tack on a bunch of magic powers as well. I think there are just too many magic powers in D&D in general. I can see how other people might like that though. It would be interesting.