Non-Square Minis?

Most horse minis by anybody other than WotC pretty much fit on a 1x2 base, rather than 2x2.

As an example, Reaper Miniatures have integral bases, and do not assume square bases, at least for their Dark Heaven line. (The bases used by Reaper are sometimes called 'broccoli bases'.)

WotC's assumption that all critters great and small are inherently square is the exception, not the rule.

The Auld Grump

Yeah, I'd never once heard of horse miniatures being square. I've had a small group of Empire cavalry (from the Warhammer miniatures game), and they're definately rectangles.

If you don't like the squareness, plenty of games use round bases, or you could get some hex bases.

Like one poster above me said, D&D minis assuming everything fits on a square is the exception, not the rule, and more proof that they're cheap and crappy. No offense if anybody really likes them, but have you looked at the competition lately?
 

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WotC's assumption that all critters great and small are inherently square is the exception, not the rule.
Like one poster above me said, D&D minis assuming everything fits on a square is the exception, not the rule, and more proof that they're cheap and crappy. No offense if anybody really likes them, but have you looked at the competition lately?

Wha? Auld Grump, you and Verdande have perplexed me in this thread. WotC's assumption that creatures are square? That makes no sense. This may not be your intent, but these comments just sound like taking potshots at everybody's favorite company to hate for no real reason.

The vast majority of ALL miniatures made for gaming today come on either perfectly square or perfectly circular bases, not just those by WotC. The size of the square/circle bases vary, but each character and creature is designed to fit onto the base, perhaps hanging over some part of it. And each base, fits within a square . . .

Horses and other "cavalry" are a great exception, creatures that are "long". You can put them on square or round bases, but they also fit just fine on "cavalry" bases that are usually 1x2 "squares". In fact, many characters and creatures, including those from WotC, can easily be removed from their "forced" square/round bases and mounted on a cavalry base.

There are some easy examples in the Heroscape D&D line, which doesn't use square/round bases for "large" creatures, the line uses cavalry bases. And the figures are reprints from the standard D&D minis line.

Also, most of the miniatures that come on "broccoli" bases don't really break the "square" mold . . . . as they usually still fit just fine within the standard 1" square space on a battlemat. They're just minis mounted on circles with the extra bits of the circle trimmed away, in a fashion.

So . . . for the OP, it's not the shape of the base nor the scale of the miniatures that is a problem . . . it's the fact that most minis from any company fit rather neatly into a "square" on a battlemat? That's a complaint I've never heard before, and will be surprised if I ever hear again!

For minis that go "beyond the square" . . . you're really looking at cavalry and asymmetrical monsters, and that's about it, IME.
 


Wha? Auld Grump, you and Verdande have perplexed me in this thread. WotC's assumption that creatures are square? That makes no sense. This may not be your intent, but these comments just sound like taking potshots at everybody's favorite company to hate for no real reason.
No, you are being overly sensitive, and defending a silly decision by a company that decided to make all creatures square - whether they should be or not. It is how WotC has had them based since 3.5.

Most companies don't make round/square bases for their horses/dragons/snakes/crocodiles/etc. and WotC does. For critters that are longer than they are wide there is a marvelous invention called a 'rectangle'. Most companies seem to have already become familiar with it. WotC decided that squares would be more convenient, whether they made any sense or not.

It is not an edition war matter - I stated back when 3.5 came out that I did not, and do not, like making creatures that should not be square fit into them. Watch a horse race some time.... Horses are much longer than they are wide - but WotC has decided that they fit into a 10x10 area, even though they will fit quite comfortably into 5x10. And a cavalry charge kind of relies on a tight frontage.

And trust me - WotC is not 'everybody's favorite game company' - it is not mine, and never has been. Capiche? - you are making a choice for 'everyone' and are incorrect.

Fitting a guy who will fit into a 5x5 onto a square is okay, inflating a crocodile to fit a 10x10 square, not so much.

The Auld Grump
 

No, you are being overly sensitive, and defending a silly decision by a company that decided to make all creatures square - whether they should be or not. It is how WotC has had them based since 3.5.

Am I being oversensitive? Probably. But my post was in response to both you and Verdande, and now both of you have used charged words like "crappy" and "silly" rather than simply, "I don't care for how WotC bases 'long' creatures".

Most companies don't make round/square bases for their horses/dragons/snakes/crocodiles/etc. and WotC does. For critters that are longer than they are wide there is a marvelous invention called a 'rectangle'. Most companies seem to have already become familiar with it. WotC decided that squares would be more convenient, whether they made any sense or not.

Did ya miss the part about "long" creatures in my post? I focused on cavalry, but snakeys and crocs certainly fit the bill. And to bemoan their "squareness" is simply wrong. The WotC D&D minis line certainly does place these types of creatures on round bases (that fit within perfect squares), but if you don't care for the base you can remove it and replace it with a rectangular cavalry base. The creatures themselves are not "square" their bases are. And bases are easy to change. And again, don't forget the WotC Heroscape line, which actually does use cavalry bases for larger creatures, both humanoids and "long" dragons and such.

Of course, WotC and other companies offer "long" creatures posed in a "square" way (like a coiled up snake or a rearing dragon), but they don't do this with all (or even most) "long" creatures by any means. And the monsters that could be posed either "square" or "rectangular" are legit either way, and if you have a preference for one or the other, that's fine too. But it's not silly nor crappy if a company poses creatures in a way you personally don't care for.

It is not an edition war matter -

Nobody said it was.

And trust me - WotC is not 'everybody's favorite game company' - it is not mine, and never has been. Capiche? - you are making a choice for 'everyone' and are incorrect.

Read the sentence again. "Everybody's favorite company to take potshots at . . ." not "Everybody's favorite company". And with how the "squareness" complaints are put forth, that's how I see the relevant posts, as taking unfair potshots.

However, I do think we're both wrong on how "most" companies do things. Companies that make miniatures for rpg and wargaming play are in a rather small, niche industry. Outside of WotC, Games Workshop, and perhaps Reaper . . . who are "most" companies? Niche companies within a niche business that don't produce miniatures on the same scale as WotC and GW. After some thought, I disagree that most companies put their "long" creatures on "long" bases . . . but I also disagree that most companies put their "long" creatures on "square" bases. Some do it one way, some do it another. Pick your preference and don't waste time slamming companies who make legitimate decisions that you simply don't agree with.

And always remember bases are easy to change, even molded bases on plastic, resin, or metal sculpts.
 

Am I being oversensitive? Probably. But my post was in response to both you and Verdande, and now both of you have used charged words like "crappy" and "silly" rather than simply, "I don't care for how WotC bases 'long' creatures".



Did ya miss the part about "long" creatures in my post? I focused on cavalry, but snakeys and crocs certainly fit the bill. And to bemoan their "squareness" is simply wrong. The WotC D&D minis line certainly does place these types of creatures on round bases (that fit within perfect squares), but if you don't care for the base you can remove it and replace it with a rectangular cavalry base. The creatures themselves are not "square" their bases are. And bases are easy to change. And again, don't forget the WotC Heroscape line, which actually does use cavalry bases for larger creatures, both humanoids and "long" dragons and such.

Of course, WotC and other companies offer "long" creatures posed in a "square" way (like a coiled up snake or a rearing dragon), but they don't do this with all (or even most) "long" creatures by any means. And the monsters that could be posed either "square" or "rectangular" are legit either way, and if you have a preference for one or the other, that's fine too. But it's not silly nor crappy if a company poses creatures in a way you personally don't care for.



Nobody said it was.



Read the sentence again. "Everybody's favorite company to take potshots at . . ." not "Everybody's favorite company". And with how the "squareness" complaints are put forth, that's how I see the relevant posts, as taking unfair potshots.

However, I do think we're both wrong on how "most" companies do things. Companies that make miniatures for rpg and wargaming play are in a rather small, niche industry. Outside of WotC, Games Workshop, and perhaps Reaper . . . who are "most" companies? Niche companies within a niche business that don't produce miniatures on the same scale as WotC and GW. After some thought, I disagree that most companies put their "long" creatures on "long" bases . . . but I also disagree that most companies put their "long" creatures on "square" bases. Some do it one way, some do it another. Pick your preference and don't waste time slamming companies who make legitimate decisions that you simply don't agree with.

And always remember bases are easy to change, even molded bases on plastic, resin, or metal sculpts.
I am going to continue to 'slam' what I see as a silly decision. If you don't like it then feel free to ignore it. The whole freakin point of this thread was somebody thought that most figures were on square bases, whether they should be or not.

This is a board dedicated, in the majority, to a game published by WotC.

One of the relatively few companies that base their miniatures around the square (or circle that fits into a square) for long creatures is also WotC.

It is fair to assume that the miniatures he was described were also manufactured by, you guessed it, WotC.

Assuming that WotC was the manufacturer who's bases the OP was commenting on was remaining on topic, so your complaint is out of place. This is a thread talking about the fact that WotC uses round or square bases. So why are you complaining that folks are posting on topic?

If this were a board dedicated to WARMACHINE I would be complaining about things germane to Privateer Press. (Like their inane 'cylinder' targeting rule) because it would be germane to that board. This site is dedicated to D&D, this topic is dedicated to the premise that folks use the same type bases that WotC uses, and which has been demonstrated to be false.

And maybe, just maybe, there is a reason people are complaining about the basing and spacing that WotC uses, eh?

If you don't want to read people complaining about something that WotC did, then why the heck are you reading a topic that is specific to complaining about something that WotC does, very few others do, and that some people disagree with? Go read posts that laud WotC for what they have done right, if that takes your fancy. You'll feel better, and I won't have an urge to throw a pie at you.

The square critters rule annoys me, and I really wish that Pathfinder hadn't followed suit. And while, yes, I can rebase the minis, the fact that I have to is a big chunk of why I own so few (a dozen or so) WotC miniatures, out of a collection of thousands of figures. (The other big chunk is that their man sized figures look like crap.)

Had I really wanted to take potshots at WotC that is where I would have pointed my gun. I will admit that some of their larger figures are okay, and some of the big ones, like the Remorhaz, look nice enough to be worth rebasing.

Most companies does include GW - which mounts horses on long bases, and both manufactures and sells a Hell of a lot more miniatures than WotC.

It also includes Reaper, which mounts horses on long bases, and probably manufactures as many miniatures, or more, than WotC.

Other miniature manufacturers are a long way behind GW, Reaper, and, yes, WotC. Maybe, Privateer as well, but only maybe. WotC does not have a plurality in the miniatures market.

WotC is a majority in RPGs, not in miniatures. They are a minority in miniatures, and miniatures are a sideline for them. (And one that they are cutting back on.)

And if you are complaining about this hobby being a niche, should I be worried about how the miniatures that other companies, in other industries, aren't manufacturing might be based? Pick an industry or hobby and stick to it.

The majority in the wargaming/miniatures gaming hobby don't use square or circular bases for everything. There is a majority, and WotC isn't it.

If I think that something is 'silly' or 'crappy' then I am going to say that it is silly or crappy. Many (but not all) of WotC's miniatures and miniature conventions are both.

The Auld Grump, rambling because he is tired. If he were awake this thread would be half its current length.... He is not beating a dead horse, his eyes are shut and he can't see the darned thing. :p
 
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I am going to continue to 'slam' what I see as a silly decision . . .

Whoah. Dude, I'm not asking you to stop posting your opinions. I'm disagreeing with you. It sometimes happens in forum discussions. And I take exception, not to your dislike of WotC miniatures, but your characterization of the companies basing and sculpting decisions as crappy, silly, and stupid.

Anyway, this is clearly a discussion that will bear no fruit. So you go on bashing the silly squareness of WotC's miniatures, and I'll continue to be a bit bewildered by it all.
 

Whoah. Dude, I'm not asking you to stop posting your opinions. I'm disagreeing with you. It sometimes happens in forum discussions. And I take exception, not to your dislike of WotC miniatures, but your characterization of the companies basing and sculpting decisions as crappy, silly, and stupid.

Anyway, this is clearly a discussion that will bear no fruit. So you go on bashing the silly squareness of WotC's miniatures, and I'll continue to be a bit bewildered by it all.
Dang, I was looking forward to linking to a video of Bill Gates getting 'pied'. :p

And yes, I still think that is silly and crappy, though I do not believe that I ever used the term 'stupid'. WotC was concerned primarily with their flanking rules, my approach is to broaden the area which can be considered flanking, rather than over simplifying the method.

It was not a 'stupid' decision, but rather an informed one, but, nevertheless, a decision that I feel was ill advised, resulting in silly spacing.

And it is not 'sculpting decisions' that are 'crappy' in regards to D&DM figures, it is the sculpting itself, caused in part by their choice of material. Details are soft and shallow, lacking precision and depth. This is because they use a low impact resinous plastic, rather than either metal or high impact plastic.

This is not as noticeable on larger figures, but are quite obvious on Medium sized critters and smaller. The lack of detail is aggravated by poorish paint jobs that can often be described as 'slapdash'.

There are many, many companies that create much more detailed miniatures, in part because they utilize either a hard plastic or metal. The 'advantage' of D&DM figures is that they are prepainted (though badly) and are often inexpensive. My preference is to paint the miniatures myself, and to have better miniatures to start with.

Do not be surprised when folks comment that badly painted, soft detailed figures look 'crappy' - they are being compared to well painted crisply detailed miniatures that don't look crappy. The downsides of the 'not crappy' miniatures is that they are proportionally more expensive, and are either unpainted or painted aftermarket for a fee.

If it makes you feel any better, I am not fond of either the detail or the paint job on the Reaper prepainted miniatures. I limit my purchases of the Reaper prepaints to larger figures, in much the same way that I limit my WotC miniature purchases. The paint on the Rakham prepainted miniatures, on the other hand, is better, and the miniatures themselves more detailed, but they are much more expensive. (They also do not have many figures that interest me, but that is not by lack of virtue.)

And, with the miniatures game folded into 4e, it seems that WoC is not all that happy with miniatures sales, unless things have greatly changed in the last six months or so. When last I read they had dropped down to a single large release per year, with one offs such as the recent Orcus and possible Beholder set separate from the random sets.

The Auld Grump
 

If I give some background on myself, I think that may help give some context to my posts.


While D&D is not currently my primary choice for rpgs, I was solely a D&D player for a very long time. As such, the majority of the minis I own are D&D minis. I also don't have very much experience painting minis; while I have painted a few, the one's I've painted have been what D&D calls medium sized. I wrongfully assumed -based on my narrow experience with minis- that the majority of minis were formed the way that D&D minis are due to D&D tending to be the dominant rpg brand.

Some of the games I play use combat grids which are very different from D&D. Likewise, I often play gridless and simply handle movement with a ruler; one inch is still one inch regardless of whether I'm using a grid or not, and most games base their movement around 1 inch increments. As such, I was looking for a company which caters to my style of play. As it turns out -from the responses I've gotten- most do.

I've been playing rpgs for a while now, but, as I said, I'm not very well versed in minis. I need to educate myself more on minis.
 

WotC's assumption that all critters great and small are inherently square is the exception, not the rule.
Just to be clear for anyone who's unsure, WotC-D&D does not assume all creatures are square (or round, I suppose, if you look at the mini bases). It's that WotC-D&D does not consider facing in its combat rules, so there is no meaning to 'front' or 'side' to a creature in combat. A creature that's longer than it is wide therefore cannot be represented that way on the battle grid, since that would require knowledge of which direction the creature is facing. It's the same type of thing that Small creatures take up as much space as Medium ones - how can a halfling possibly fill 25 square feet just by standing there? He can't; it's an abstraction.

You might not like this, but your choice to characterize the decision as "they think all creatures are square" is presumably what got Dire Bare involved. There are less misleading ways of making your point.
 

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