D&D (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight

[DEFCON 1]

Conceptually that's true, but if the rules of the game you're playing don't let you make that combination of choices, and you're not in a position to change those rules (which a single player in a group generally is not), you may have a problem.

Your point?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Your point?

That you can't always just do what you want, so your suggestion isn't always going to be valid.

 

[mellored]

Not if you played Fighters like I did in 2014. They were quite fun (including multiclass, feats, species spells etc) and would be even moreso on the 2024 Fighter chasis if Warmagic was just treated like every similar subclass ability from other classes and applied to all spells.

They haven't updated the Bladesinger.
And I would nerf Valor to just use a bard cantrips.

Otherwise they would all stack.

Bladesinger/ Eldrich Knight / Warlock 2 could use 8 rays + attack + Nick.
Multipled by on-hit buffs (hex, Conjure Minor Elemental).

 

[TiQuinn]

I don't want to play a high intelligence Fighter, nor a Fighter-Wizard. Neither of those interest me.

Whenever I’ve read the entry on the EK, that’s what the subclass seems like it’s going for: a fighter who also has studied magic, i.e. an int-based fighter.

 

[mellored]

I don't want to play a high intelligence Fighter, nor a Fighter-Wizard. Neither of those interest me.

That's exactly what a Eldritch Knight is though. A fighter-wizard.

If you want to play a fighter warlock, then pick up pack of the blade.

 

[ECMO3]

They haven't updated the Bladesinger.
And I would nerf Valor to just use a bard cantrips.

Otherwise they would all stack.

Bladesinger/ Eldrich Knight / Warlock 2 could use 8 rays + attack + Nick.
Multipled by on-hit buffs (hex, Conjure Minor Elemental).

How could they use 8 rays? It tops out at 4.

Also you can't stack Bladesinger Extra Attack with any other version of extra attack.

 

[mellored]

How could they use 8 rays? It tops out at 4.

Also you can't stack Bladesinger Extra Attack with any other version of extra attack.

Take the Attack action for 2 Attacks.
-Bladesinger let's you replace one with Eldritch Blast.
-You're Eldritch Knight would let you replace the other.

Fortunately, you can't get 3 attacks and 3 replacements. Not enough levels.

 

[ECMO3]

There is no difference in pumping INT instead of DEX as far as other ability scores are concerned and splashing wizard instead of bard, sorcerer, or warlock would would the same way except it complements the Eldritch Knight subclass better.

It is not even necessary to splash at all to use Truestrike, but doing so gives access to more cantrips and rituals as well as more spells prepped and more spell slots.

The only part of your argument that seems relevant is that you do not like INT for some reason even though Investigation uses it, and History (or Religion) can be relevant to the social pillar too in other ways.


You can do that with or without a splash on an Eldritch Knight.

You can not do it with a splash. The Warmagic feature on Eldritch Knight only works with Cantrips you get from your Eldritch Knight feature. So that means the two Cantrips I choose with Eldritch Knight.

I can't even do it on a single class EK if I get Truestrike from Elf or a feat.

This limites you to two (3 at high level) Cantrips you can use with Warmagic.

So that begs the question of why you are playing the EK in the first place. INT is the casting stat for that subclass. If a person does not like INT on a fighter that is not an issue with that subclass. I seems to be WAI better now.

There are plenty of spells that don't use Intelligence (including Cantrips) and this is especially true in 2014 with the requirements for Abjurations which rarely use Intelligence.

That does not make sense. Those spells do not somehow get better with low INT. You can still take and use those with a higher INT. Or you can still dump INT and take those spells. The changes to spells now give EKs a much larger variety of wizard spells from which to choose, and the EK can also cast rituals from that list as rituals now.

Yes the problem is I can't do this while also having a very high Charisma.

I played a lot of EKs using the 2014 rules, after 2018 it was one of only 3 subclasses I played (the others being Arcane Archer and Rune Knight) and was the one I played most often and I never played it with a high Intelligence.

Let me put it this way - If I roll good enough that I get an 18, and two natural 16s this works out ok. I put my 20 in Charisma, a 17 in intelligence and a 16 in Strength to start then I boost Intelligence to 20 my first two feats and I am good.

Any other way I do it I have to either accept having poor rolls on my Cantrips or I have to accept less Charisma then I should have with a Fighter and those rolls.

Just take spells that do not rely on the casting stat and continue to dump INT if you want. That is still something you can do.

But then I can not effectively use Warmagic in the new rules.

I have been toying with the idea of making an arcane archer out of the EK, but I have sooo many ideas and sooo little game time. ;-)

Arcane Archer is a pretty cool class as is. I don't see much need for change.

That is not the impression I am getting here. It looks like you are just swapping EB+AG for TS+AG.

No I don't. I would not even take a 2nd level in Warlock most likely and not until very high level if I did. I want True Strike on Charisma and spells on Charisma.

When I have played this most of the time in 2014 it was with a Sorcerer, not a Warlock

The social pillar is not all about CHA.

But the fighters I like to play are all about it.

The EK does not need to use a cantrip for Truestrike because it is on the wizard spell list.

This could be a literal interpretation of RAW, but when you read the whole section in context it is pretty clear they mean the spells you know as an Eldritch Kinght.

There would be no problem with this interpretation as I could get Truestrike as a Bard or Sorcerer and it is still on the Wizard list, but that is obviously not what is meant.

Again, this does not make sense. There is no benefit to having low INT with these spells. What you seem to be doing is selecting spells that do not require high INT. But you could just take high INT instead of high CHA.

Yes but then I would have a low Charisma, and I am not interested in playing an EK with a low Charisma.

The builds are not limited to fighter cantrips. They have wizard cantrips and whatever other class you are splashing that could also be a wizard. That is plenty of cantrips.

But they can't be used with Warmagic.

There is are plenty of utility spells available to both the EK and wizard through the wizard spell list.

There are enough available through EK if you have another caster class you are preparing offensive spells with. There are not enough on EK alone because you are extremely limited on both prepared spells and slots.

CHA is not the entire social pillar.

No but it is the part I care abotu playing.

Bards and warlocks are squishier than fighters.

Warlocks are not squishier IME, Bards can be depending on your spell selection and ability scores.

I am not sure Truestrike is better for those classes.

What you quoted was a response to a post that stated implied I wanted to be able to do this to be good at melee, utility and social pillar with good spells.

I pointed out that the classes I mentioned can be built to do all these things .... and yes I think the 2024 Valor Bard can do all 3 better than a fighter.

They all have to invest in their casting stat too. The idea that the EK should not have to do the same seems like a weird take. A fighter who does invest in their casting stat uses Truestrike just as effectively as those other classes, but has more attacks an more hit point and weapon mastery etc.

Compared to a full caster optimized for melee and using spells explicitly for melee support, they have less total hit points, lower effective AC and generally weaker attacks.

Just because fighters can be outclassed in melee by full casters doesn't mean they can't be fun to play though.

Weapon Masteries and Fighting Style Feats are neat but they have nowhere near as powerful as high-level spells in melee.

If I try to make a wizard who avoids spells than need INT and dumpstat it like you are doing with your EK the wizard is also going to have issues with Truestrike too.

That is different though, to start with you can't multiclass a Wizard with a low Intelligence however, if I give her a low intelligence and get Truestrike as an Elf on my 20 Charisma Truestrike will work quite well.

Also if said single class Wizard is a Bladesinger and I take medium armor feat and Pact of the Blade feat and have a 14+ Dexterity and 13+ strength, said Wizard will rock in melee even with a 3 intelligence .... not as good as a Bladesinger with a high intelligence, but pretty darn good just the same.

disagree but from everything you said all you need to do is play a Valor bard and take a fighter dip to meet the criteria you say you value here.

I don't think I need a Fighter dip on a V. Bard, but this is a different kind of character. One I will probably play but different.

Now we are back to saying it is about the ability score and skills and spells and demonstrating it is about trying to leverage Agonizing Blast. ;-)

This is an entirely different character with no fighter levels at all and a rabbit hole not really germane to this thread.

 

[ECMO3]

Take the Attack action for 2 Attacks.
-Bladesinger let's you replace one with Eldritch Blast.
-You're Eldritch Knight would let you replace the other.

Fortunately, you can't get 3 attacks and 3 replacements. Not enough levels.

This does not work for several reasons.

Let's say you are an EK11/Bladesinger 6/Warlock 2

You can only use one version of extra attack. The game is specific about this. So you can either use your Bladesinger Extra Attack (which gives only 2 attacks and lets you replace one) or you can use your Fighter extra attack which gives you three but does not let you replace any as part of Extra Attack.

Now the question still is can you use Bladesinger Extra Attack and make 2 Attacks and replace both of them (no 3rd attack, no nick), one with the Extra Attack Feature and the other with War Magic. Here you still have a problem because both of those abilities say you can replace "one" of the attacks. Multiple effects that cause the same status do not stack. Just like if 2 casters cast Haste on you it does not mean you can take 3 actions.

 

[ECMO3]

The fact that you require a high CHR for your characters is not a flaw in the Eldritch Knight.

I did not say it was a flaw. I said I am not a fan and don't like it.