D&D (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight

[ECMO3]

I agree that you could play an effective eldritch knight without high int in 2014. You can still do it now. Just no eldritch blast + attack.

You can't effecrtively use any offensive Cantrip + attack if you play with a low intelligence ... or at least none that are effective.

While you can technically use Chill Touch or Toll The Dead or True Strike with War Magic and say a 6 intelligence, doing so will suck!

Losing the ability to do this with Eldritch Blast does not bother me at all and I wouldn't care if they got rid of EB all together. I don't even get it on all the Warlocks I playy.

Losing the ability to use other Cantrips from any other feature you have including Cantrips you get from a feat or Race or another class or a magic item or anything is a big issue though. You play an Eldritch Knight and there are 2 Cantrips and only 2 Cantrips you can use with War Magic (3 at 10th level) regardless of how many Cantrips you know.

PC: Ok DM I want my Wood Elf EK to make and attack and use Druidcraft to snuff out the torch lighting the room.
DM: You can't because you did not get that Cantrip from Eldritch Knight
PC: Ok then I want to make an attack and use Mage Hand that I got from Magic Initiate to pour water on the torch and snuff it out.
DM: You can't. The Cantrips you got from Eldritch Knight are Message and Blade Ward. Those are the only Cantrips you can cast as part of the attack action.
PC: Well I cast Bladeward last turn so I really don't need to cast it again, and I don't need to message anyone. I guess I will just attack.

As I noted earlier, this restriction is unique to EK. The near identical abilities on Bladesinger and Valor Bard don't have it. Arcane Trickster does not require a spell to be an AT spell to use with their magic-boosting features. This is a nerf put solely on the EK and it is not clear why.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

You can't effecrtively use any offensive Cantrip + attack if you play with a low intelligence ... or at least none that are effective.

Which I did not say. Maybe you should read what I write and stop building straw men. You can still build an effectice low int fighter. Your cantrip could be blade ward.
Or minor illusion. Or resistance. Or light. Or dancing lights.

Or you can just not use a cantrip. The 2014 fighter always had incentives to just use their standard (extra) attack action.

While you can technically use Chill Touch or Toll The Dead or True Strike with War Magic and say a 6 intelligence, doing so will suck!

Yes. Obviously.

Losing the ability to do this with Eldritch Blast does not bother me at all and I wouldn't care if they got rid of EB all together. I don't even get it on all the Warlocks I playy.

Why are you so keen on using EB then?

Losing the ability to use other Cantrips from any other feature you have including Cantrips you get from a feat or Race or another class or a magic item or anything is a big issue though.

You could get magic initate wizard and chose charisma as your casting stat. So you could have an attack cantrip to use (or two... including true strike).*

You play an Eldritch Knight and there are 2 Cantrips and only 2 Cantrips you can use with War Magic (3 at 10th level) regardless of how many Cantrips you know.

Take magic initate. A fighter has so many feats, that they can spare one and use it on an origin feat, especially if they chose to dump a main stat.
If you are so keen on making a special build, why don't you get a bit creative?

PC: Ok DM I want my Wood Elf EK to make and attack and use Druidcraft to snuff out the torch lighting the room.

Yeah, that does indeed not work. Prestidigitation could do it.

DM: You can't because you did not get that Cantrip from Eldritch Knight
PC: Ok then I want to make an attack and use Mage Hand that I got from Magic Initiate to pour water on the torch and snuff it out.
DM: You can't. The Cantrips you got from Eldritch Knight are Message and Blade Ward. Those are the only Cantrips you can cast as part of the attack action.

Wrong. Magic intiate wizard spells are wizard spells. Nothing in the description says you can only use your spells gained from the subclass.
Why are you inventing a rule thatvdoes not exist just to prove a "point"?
Also, why chose message from the EK and not mage hand? And message from magic initate? I mean, in 2024 you can change the cantrip of MI on level up. So at level 3 you can be clever and just move spells a bit around.

PC: Well I cast Bladeward last turn so I really don't need to cast it again, and I don't need to message anyone. I guess I will just attack.

As I noted earlier, this restriction is unique to EK. The near identical abilities on Bladesinger

2014 class. Does not count.

and Valor Bard don't have it.

The vard is THE versatile class. It might be an oversight though.

Arcane Trickster does not require a spell to be an AT spell to use with their magic-boosting features. This is a nerf put solely on the EK and it is not clear why.

For you at least.


*you could even be a human guide with magic initate druid and magic initiate wizard, chose wisdom both times, start with wisdom 16 and use a club as your main weapon or a quarterstaff. You can cast shillelagh with your bonus action and still use truestrike and attack with your club normall, only using wisdom as your attacl stat. At level 17 you do 11d6 damage as your normal attack damage ad you can keep str at medium level and dump int to 6.

 

[ECMO3]

Which I did not say. Maybe you should read what I write and stop building straw men. You can still build an effectice low int fighter. Your cantrip could be blade ward.

You said all it effects is Eldritch Blast and that is not true it affects all Cantrips you have from a feature other than Eldritch Knight.

Or minor illusion. Or resistance. Or light. Or dancing lights.

Well it could be two of those, or 3 at 10th level .... and only those 2 or 3.

Why are you so keen on using EB then?

I am not. Have you actually read what I have written previously on this thread? Others are focusing solely on EB, I'm not and it is not even one of the Cantrips I really want to use with this feature (Truestrike and Green Flame Blade are).

Wrong. Magic intiate wizard spells are wizard spells. Nothing in the description says you can only use your spells gained from the subclass.
Why are you inventing a rule thatvdoes not exist just to prove a "point"?

If you read the entire section in context it is clear they are talking about spells you get from the Eldritch Knight feature.

If this applies to every spell on the Wizard list then this is fine and not bad at all, as I can get those "Wizard spells" on a Warlock or Sorcerer Multiclass, with an Elf or with Magic Initiate. But that is not how most would interpret the wording.

And message from magic initate? I mean, in 2024 you can change the cantrip of MI on level up. So at level 3 you can be clever and just move spells a bit around.

Yeah but regardless of how you move them around it only works with 2 of them. Even though in the example I gave you have 5.

2014 class. Does not count.

Subclass, not class.

*you could even be a human guide with magic initate druid and magic initiate wizard, chose wisdom both times, start with wisdom 16 and use a club as your main weapon or a quarterstaff. You can cast shillelagh with your bonus action and still use truestrike and attack with your club normall, only using wisdom as your attacl stat. At level 17 you do 11d6 damage as your normal attack damage ad you can keep str at medium level and dump int to 6.

Truestrike would need to be an EK Cantrip and you would need to do your attack on Intelligence.

If we are to accept your intperpretation that the EK features work for every Cantrip (and at high level every spell) on the Wizard list, regardless of how you got it, then there is no problem.

 

[mellored]

Right and the Fighter extra attack feature modifies the Attack action. You can use one or the other, not both.

There is no rule says "war magic" does not stack with extra attack.

Because doing it twice is more than doing it once.

Yes.
Not a helpful statement.

The EK War Magic feature allows you to change "one" of your attacks, not "one more" of your attacks.

It doesn't specify which attack you replace.

Right 1+1 is 2 which is not "one"

Another unhelpful statement.

Dragonborn Bladesinger can cast a cantrip as one attack and breathe as one attack replacing both of her attacks.

Right.
Because one feature lets you replace an attack, and the other feature lets you replace the one attack.

They both say "you can replace one of the/your attacks".


A Dragonborn EK 11/ Valor 6 could replace all 3 attacks.

 

[barouqeworks]

If you read the entire section in context it is clear they are talking about spells you get from the Eldritch Knight feature.

If this applies to every spell on the Wizard list then this is fine and not bad at all, as I can get those "Wizard spells" on a Warlock or Sorcerer Multiclass, with an Elf or with Magic Initiate. But that is not how most would interpret the wording.

This is a weird hill to die on. its not limited to "eldritch knight subclass" it says specifically "your wizard cantrips" they didnt add an extra clause saying "specifically from this subclass" they just simply said "wizard cantrips" meaning it works with mc into wizard or with the magic initiate.
also booming blade still exists, but im just guessing you want to continue to complain on how you wish you can cast EB

 

[Umbran]

but im just guessing you want to continue to complain on how you wish you can cast EB

Mod Note:
Hi there!

Maybe, on your very first posts, you might want to avoid throwing out judgements about the people you are talking to. Not only don't you know them, but it is unlikely to improve the quality of the discussion.

Please, try to keep your commentary to the subject, and not the people you're speaking with. Thanks.

 

[ECMO3]

also booming blade still exists, but im just guessing you want to continue to complain on how you wish you can cast EB

I said several times that Eldritch Blast is not the issue, and pointed out that the characters I played did not always even have any Warlock levels, yet people keep bringing this up? The problem is tying any Cantrips you use with this to Intelligence. And Booming Blade always uses a weapon attack.

You are right I could use that, but that means I need to take Pact of Blade and it means I can only use one weapon with Charisma, meanwhile with Truestrike I can use Charisma on any weapon attack, can do it without POB and can do it without even multiclassing to Warlock.

In context it seems pretty clear they are talking about the spells you gain from the EK subclass and that sort of wording is unique to this subclass, not present for similar Bladesinger or Valor Bard abilities (and WRT to this Eldritch Blast strawman Valor Bard actually synergizes better, so if this is a concern why make it specific to Fighters).

IF you can use spells you got on Magic Initiate -Charisma-Wizard then I am not as upset about it at all, but most people do not interpret it this way. I posted a question here about this before I had a copy of the PHB, but after I had the wording of War Magic. Different people had different opinions, but most thought it meant spells gotten through EK subclass, the second most said any spell that uses Intelligence (not really supported in the wording IMO), a few said any spell gained from a Wizard class or EK (but a Wizard multiclass is not even possible with an Intelligence below 13). I don't think anyone was of the opinion it included all Cantrips on the Wizard spell list, regardless of how you got them. Once I got and read the PHB, the meaning seems pretty clear to me they are talking about EK Cantrips.

 

[FrogReaver]

IMO. Take a 16 charisma and str or dex. Use the ek feature for casting cantrips for utility/defensive options. Take ek spells that don’t require a casting stat. Go for 18 str 18 cha or 18 dex 18 cha.

you’ve got your charisma focused ek. He no longer casts offensive cantrips with war magic but he has weapon mastery, can take magic initiate at level 1. Can take a race that gets spells as well. Take 1 damage feat at some point and damage will be fine. If you want more charisma spells take some feats or multiclass with whatever caster you like.

Seems to me like almost everything about the Charisma EK was buffed.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

In context it seems pretty clear

I thought you said you played RAW? Your interpretation of what you think it means in the context is not RAW. RAW it says Wizard spells - ALL wizard spells fall into the category of "wizard spells".

that sort of wording is unique to this subclass, not present for similar Bladesinger or Valor Bard abilities

There are a lot of places in the 2024 rules that use different wording and formatting to describe similar abilities. You simply cannot use "consistency" to infer meaning in these rules. They authors clearly were not worrying about being consistent. "Natural language" means there are lots of different ways to say the same thing.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

As a general point, both valour bards and bladepact warlocks being buffed, there seems to be plenty of options for charismatic Gish (even draconic sorcerers are less bad at melee now) whist their is need for intelligent Gish that only the EK can do, with artificers not yet updated.