D&D (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight

[mellored]

This does not work for several reasons.

Let's say you are an EK11/Bladesinger 6/Warlock 2

You can only use one version of extra attack. The game is specific about this.

No it doesn't.

Extra Attack
If you gain the Extra Attack feature from more than one class, the features don’t stack.


When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one of the attacks with a casting of one of your Wizard cantrips that has a casting time of an action.

You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the Attack action on you turn.
In addition, you can cast one of your cantrip that has a casting time of an action in place of one of those attacks.


They are not separate actions. It's just the attack action.

Multiple effects that cause the same status do not stack.

It's not a status.

Going by your reading, you would not be able to use 2 unarmed stikes.


Now, you could add another rule in the EK saying it doesn't stack with similar features. But that's not in there by default.

 

[ECMO3]

No it doesn't.

Extra Attack
If you gain the Extra Attack feature from more than one class, the features don’t stack.


When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one of the attacks with a casting of one of your Wizard cantrips that has a casting time of an action.

This is part of the Bladesinger's Extra Attack and it is unique. It doesn't stack with the Fighter Extra Attack

Going by your reading, you would not be able to use 2 unarmed stikes.

Yes you would because Unarmed Strikes does not use the term "one" of your attacks. If the War Magic ability said you could replace "an attack" you would be able to use the Bladesinger extra attack and cast two Cantrips (but no third attack).

Now, you could add another rule in the EK saying it doesn't stack with similar features. But that's not in there by default.

By default War Magic only works with "Wizard" spells, which Eldritch Blast isn't by any measure.

 

[mellored]

This is part of the Bladesinger's Extra Attack and it is unique. It doesn't stack with the Fighter Extra Attack

Attacking twice does not stack.

Bladesinger extra attack modified the Attack action.

Yes you would because Unarmed Strikes does not use the term "one" of your attacks.

Why does that matter?

You're claiming 2 different features can not modify the Attack action.

If the War Magic ability said you could replace "an attack" you would be able to use the Bladesinger extra attack and cast two Cantrips (but no third attack).

Bladesinger says you can replace one
EK says you can replace one
1+1=2

By default War Magic only works with "Wizard" spells, which Eldritch Blast isn't by any measure.

And that's a good thing.

 

[Blue]

I did not say it was a flaw. I said I am not a fan and don't like it.

Actually, in addition to saying you hated it, you called it a big nerf. That's where many of us are coming from.

On the new EK, Warmagic gets a slight improvement and then a big nerf. It works with the attack action, not requiring an extra action, but it also only works with your Wizard spells. This means Eldritch Blast is not even usable with it and it means if you want to use it in combat you really need to have a good Intelligence, when most fighters dump intelligence.

Just to understand, you dislike the subclass (perfectly valid, I support you) but think it's just fine mechanically, not flawed/nerfed like you are saying now? Or do you think the subclass is flawed as is?

 

[ECMO3]

Attacking twice does not stack.

The entire feature does not stack

Bladesinger extra attack modified the Attack action.

Right and the Fighter extra attack feature modifies the Attack action. You can use one or the other, not both.

Why does that matter?

Because doing it twice is more than doing it once.

You're claiming 2 different features can not modify the Attack action.

They can, but not in the same way.

For example a Dragonborn Bladesinger can cast a cantrip as one attack and breathe as one attack replacing both of her attacks. She can't cast a cantrip as two attacks though because two is more than one.

The EK War Magic feature allows you to change "one" of your attacks, not "one more" of your attacks.

Bladesinger says you can replace one
EK says you can replace one
1+1=2

Right 1+1 is 2 which is not "one"

Bladesinger extra attack says you can replace "one"

War Magic says you can replace "one", not "another one" or "one more"

 

[ECMO3]

Actually, in addition to saying you hated it, you called it a big nerf. That's where many of us are coming from.

Just to understand, you dislike the subclass (perfectly valid, I support you) but think it's just fine mechanically, not flawed/nerfed like you are saying now? Or do you think the subclass is flawed as is?

I think the subclass is not as fun as it was. It was one of the 3 most fun Fighters to play, and the best of the ones that were reprinted in the PHB.

I think the War Magic feature specifically got a minor improvement (and actually a big improvement at high level) and a big nerf with a very limited list of cantrips (2 and 3 at high level).

 

[FrozenNorth]

I think the subclass is not as fun as it was. It was one of the 3 most fun Fighters to play, and the best of the ones that were reprinted in the PHB.

The fact that you play the class is a very particular way has an outsize impact in your assessment. The fact that you don’t like boosting Intelligence on a sub-class for which it is the main secondary stat means that you are treating an extremely minor change “warcaster only works with wizard spells” as a huge change and ignoring an actual huge change “you can choose ALL your spells from the entire wizard list, not just abjuration and evocation”.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

The fact that you play the class is a very particular way has an outsize impact in your assessment. The fact that you don’t like boosting Intelligence on a sub-class for which it is the main secondary stat means that you are treating an extremely minor change “warcaster only works with wizard spells” as a huge change and ignoring an actual huge change “you can choose ALL your spells from the entire wizard list, not just abjuration and evocation”.

This is the way to go about it. And faced with these facts a person can choose— I suppose—their campaign wisely. Maybe one of each if they are lucky.

I prefer this approach to “but you are not playing them how you should.”

My old (apparently not so unique) idea was to play a high charisma eldritch knight who was of middling ability at best in wizardry; say a 10-12 int and load him up with feats reminiscent of warlock taking attack or save spells that keyed of chr and int spells like shield, prot from evil, find familiar, etc.

He could not get what he wanted the “right way” so compensated with eldritch adept, magic iniate warlock and so on.

I play tons of blade boon warlock and wondered how more warrior and less magic would play in this thematic space.

The reduced restrictions to spells for the new eldritch knight is noteworthy. You get something for something…whether you like it as much will vary.

 

[ECMO3]

The fact that you play the class is a very particular way has an outsize impact in your assessment. The fact that you don’t like boosting Intelligence on a sub-class for which it is the main secondary stat means that you are treating an extremely minor change “warcaster only works with wizard spells” as a huge change and ignoring an actual huge change “you can choose ALL your spells from the entire wizard list, not just abjuration and evocation”.

I get it, the huge change does little for me as most of the spells I was getting were abjurations (Shield, Protection from Evil and Good, Absorb Elements, Arcane Lock, Lemund's Tiny Hut).

There are other spells I want, most notably Find Familiar and the new mirror image, but not many of them and not enough to be overly worried about the expanded spell list.

There are two reasons the expanded spell list is not a big deal. The first, specific to my play style, is most of them work better with a higher intelligence and mine won't be good enough to be be good at them. The second, which is really an issue for all single class EKs is that they do not get enough slots or high enough level spells to be very effective as a caster in general.

Even with the whole list to choose from you are still only casting 1st and 2nd level spells at 12th level, and not many of them. When you consider this, abjurations are logically what is going to gobble up a lot of those slots anyway, because casting a web at 12th level, even if you have a 16 intelligence is just not going to be generally effective compared to other things you can do.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I get it, the huge change does little for me as most of the spells I was getting were abjurations (Shield, Protection from Evil and Good, Absorb Elements, Arcane Lock, Lemund's Tiny Hut).

There are other spells I want, most notably Find Familiar and the new mirror image, but not many of them and not enough to be overly worried about the expanded spell list.

There are two reasons the expanded spell list is not a big deal. The first, specific to my play style, is most of them work better with a higher intelligence and mine won't be good enough to be be good at them. The second, which is really an issue for all single class EKs is that they do not get enough slots or high enough level spells to be very effective as a caster in general.

Even with the whole list to choose from you are still only casting 1st and 2nd level spells at 12th level, and not many of them. When you consider this, abjurations are logically what is going to gobble up a lot of those slots anyway, because casting a web at 12th level, even if you have a 16 intelligence is just not going to be generally effective compared to other things you can do.

I agree that you could play an effective eldritch knight without high int in 2014. You can still do it now. Just no eldritch blast + attack.

I understand that you are sad it.
I am sad that bards can't use rapiers anymore. Or lost songs of rest.