D&D (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight

[FrozenNorth]

This post misses what the actual buff to the 2024 Eldritch Knight was: not being limited to the evocation and abjuration schools for most of your spells. I already have high AC and do lots of damage, why force me to double down on that?

Now I can choose Divination spells to improve my out of combat usefulness, or play around with Illusions. It opens up the class to new archetypes that weren’t available before.

 

[Steampunkette]

I am not sure what you are trying to say. It looks like the biggest issue OP has is that he struggles with multiclassing.

The Eldritch Knight is meant to be an Intelligence caster like a Wizard. They do some War Magic with cantrip+attack and eventually spell+attack. Like that's the heart of it.

You make a Fighter-Eldritch Knight and you go from 1-20 with that because it does the Gish Thing.

But instead, people take Eldritch Knight, dump Intelligence, stack Charisma, dip Warlock, get Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast, and use it instead.

Which is hardly a -bad- thing. But the purpose of a system is what it does...

So you wound up making a Fighter archetype whose casting attribute is best ignored in favor of multiclassing into Warlock.

Now, in D&D24, they've implemented the "Hey! Stop That!" game design, making it impossible to fully benefit from the Warlock dip. They've broken a functional system that was fulfilling class fantasy in a backdoor optional rules way.

Like. They -clearly- knew that's what people were doing with it, otherwise they wouldn't have "Fixed" it.

Instead they should've gone the opposite direction and redesigned the Eldritch Knight to be Warlock-Friendly to the point that a level dip wasn't needed. Instead of making the Eldritch Knight a Wizard/Fighter gish they should've leaned in on making it a Warlock/Fighter gish.

Like giving them an Eldritch-Blast equivalent ability out of the gate. Maybe a special 1d8+Int class feature that 'counts as a cantrip' for the purposes of War Magic instead of 1d10 with Agonizing Blast as an option.

Or hell... skip the War Magic function of it. Make it an Attack-Replacing 1d8+Int ranged spell attack that you use as part of the attack action. Then make War Magic include a line that if you use that ability you also get a bonus action attack (in addition to War Magic's normal function).

Got 3 attacks? Throw 2 magic blasts and a sword strike. Or two sword strikes and a magic blast. Or three blasts. And then bonus action War Magic.

Then they'd have a significantly lowered desire, much less a perceived 'Need' to multiclass into Warlock for Eldritch Blast/Agonizing Blast.

 

[Oofta]

I don't think they broke the eldritch knight, they opened up new possibilities by letting them take any wizard spell. There is no "need" to cast eldritch blast when you can, oh I don't know, use a weapon to attack. If you want a warlock that wears armor, there are plenty of other options, in the meantime eldritch knight now has some interesting options with access to a wide variety of spells.

Seems to me the only issue is people pigeon-holed them into one very specific build. Personally I'm glad it's changed, I might actually consider playing one now.

 

[ECMO3]

There is no "need" to cast eldritch blast when you can, oh I don't know, use a weapon to attack

I do want to point out that the new design makes a Cantrip part of the attack action, where the old design gave you a bonus action single attack after casting a Cantrip.

So the new design actulally more or less mandates this ..... you do need to make a weapon attack after a [Wizard] Cantrip. The old design did not, you could cast EB or Chill Touch or anything else and use a different bonus action like for example recalling your bond weapon or second wind or misty step or anything else.'

Even without being able to use Eldrtich Blast, it is not going to be hard to make a build uses a Cantrip and an attack and outruns the old design, especially when you consider a multiclass or feat that gets me Hex. Now I can get all my attacks (including more total at high level), my Cantrip and move/cast my Hex on the same round. I just need to run a very high intelligence to make it all work, and that is really my problem.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

As long as the iconic 5th level Martial class feature is viewed as a 6th level subclass feature, but the 5th level spellcaster feature is viewed as a 17th level subclass feature, there will be a mismatch between spellcasting martials and weapon-using spellcasters.

If the only way that you liked the 2014 EK was by taking a completely different casting ability and relying on Eldritch blast cheese; then you didn't like the Eldritch Knight, you mostly just liked the cheese. 2014 Eldritch Blast was known to be an issue, and if patching that problem made the Eldritch Knight non-viable in your eyes, then the subclass was always the issue.

Try looking at other cantrips like Green Flame Blade.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Being able to use Bladeward while making an attack was pretty awesome too.

You can still cast Blade Ward with War Magic... Sure, you don't need to cast it often (what with 1min duration if you have the concentration to spare for it), but War Magic doesn't limit itself to just attack cantrips.

 

[ECMO3]

As long as the iconic 5th level Martial class feature is viewed as a 6th level subclass feature, but the 5th level spellcaster feature is viewed as a 17th level subclass feature, there will be a mismatch between spellcasting martials and weapon-using spellcasters.

If the only way that you liked the 2014 EK was by taking a completely different casting ability and relying on Eldritch blast cheese; then you didn't like the Eldritch Knight, you mostly just liked the cheese. 2014 Eldritch Blast was known to be an issue, and if patching that problem made the Eldritch Knight non-viable in your eyes, then the subclass was always the issue.

I did not rely on Eldritch Blast cheese and even on the PCs that had it, it was not the most common cantrip I used with War Magic. When I did use it I usually did not even make another attack, and used a different bonus action and often I only had 1 level in Warlock if I had any Warlock levels.

What I did rely on was a number Charisma based spells and skills. Usually I was playing a Drow (Faerie Fire, Darkness) and picked up Drow High Magic (Detect Magic, Levitate and Dispel Magic), and Fey Touched (either Hex or Dissonant Whispers) at 4th and 6th level of Fighter. This gave me a ton of Charisma spells on a once a day cast, including a 3rd level spell at 5th level or so (right on track with a full caster)

Drow High Magic is a fantastic feat for making a Gish a better caster. Levitate is not the best offesnive spell but it can be a useful offensive spell and you already have Faerie Fire and Darkness if you are taking this feat. Detect Magic at will is also super useful, a lot better than a ritual, and not really doable by anything else except a Warlock. Drow High Magic is Charisma only though (even though Drow Faerie Fire no longer is).

If I had good rolls, Shadow Sorcerer was the most common class I choose at 1st level, getting the Charisma save, Strength of the Grave and Cause Fear, which upcasts really well and ran a 14 dexterity and medium armor. If I did not have the rolls for this, I usually went with a fighter first for the heavy armor and accepted a low dexterity.

I did take Warlock levels in some of the builds (sometimes in addition to Sorc levels), and when I did that I did take Eldritch Blast, but it is hardly the central theme.

Try looking at other cantrips like Green Flame Blade.

That is the Cantrip I used most with War Magic in the 2014 PC, even on PCs with a level of Warlock, but usually I got it from a Warlock or Sorcerer multiclass.

Again if I am playing an Eldritch Knight with a 7-9 Intelligence, using Green Flame Blade-Intelligence with War Magic means a -2 or -1 to the damage on the second target, making it hardly good, and that is in addition to usually only having a +3 on the base attack and damage since I am not boosting Strength.

The real rub is the 2024 Cantrip I really want to use with this is Truestrike, which seems so cool as a Cantrip for the way I play EKs, but also quite useless due to the intelligence requirement.

 

[Oofta]

As long as the iconic 5th level Martial class feature is viewed as a 6th level subclass feature, but the 5th level spellcaster feature is viewed as a 17th level subclass feature, there will be a mismatch between spellcasting martials and weapon-using spellcasters.

If the only way that you liked the 2014 EK was by taking a completely different casting ability and relying on Eldritch blast cheese; then you didn't like the Eldritch Knight, you mostly just liked the cheese. 2014 Eldritch Blast was known to be an issue, and if patching that problem made the Eldritch Knight non-viable in your eyes, then the subclass was always the issue.

Try looking at other cantrips like Green Flame Blade.

There are so many cool spells you can cast that don't focus on damage as well. Lean into your fighter abilities for damage, spells for control and distraction. You get weapon masteries and can summon weapons as a bonus action, so do something like get a heavy crossbow to push enemies away 10 feet or get a light crossbow to slow them down. Maybe take two weapon fighting style, crossbow expertise and hand crossbows*.

For spells there are so many options that don't do damage. Shield is an obvious one but hideous laughter, color spray or even old standbys like grease could give you a bit of control. Depending on campaign I'd consider color spray. Heck, I'd probably be wasting all my money on scrolls because there are just so many cool things you could do when you don't have to be concerned about relying on spells for damage.

Dang. Now I have yet another build I'll probably never get a chance to play.

*Not needing a free hand to reload really bugs me but if we're going for cheese, why not?

 

[Belen]

I am confused. I always thought EK was created to simulate the older and very popular fighter mage multiclass because actual multiclassing has sucked since 3e.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I am confused. I always thought EK was created to simulate the older and very popular fighter mage multiclass because actual multiclassing has sucked since 3e.

It's not. It's the base Fighter chassis with a few spell slots clumsily crafted on. It takes until lv18 for EK to be able to attack while also casting a lv1/lv2 spell, which should tell you everything you need to know - not exactly a great marriage of fighting and magic.

For actual magic flavor, you really should go the other way around, being a full caster who get fighter features thrown at them via subclass (valor/sword bard, bladesinger wizard, maybe blade pact warlock). And they can use their weapons as casting focuses!

However... the base Fighter is kind of really cool now (weapon masteries, tactical mind to be a skill expert at anything), and racial spells / Magic Initiate could really benefit from just a few spell slots to cast those again with, so I can see it having more appeal now.