D&D 5E (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight

[Ancoulainn]

My point was you can’t prepare for the unknown, and my experience suggests that for a lot of DMs there will be unknowns.

Some people always know more than others. And some are always better at what they do. The difference is usually a matter of effort.

If only wishing made it so.

Not necessary since it is so. Look around, read a few guides, and you'll see that too.

Here's one:
Cheers!

 

[TheSword]

Some people always know more than others. And some are always better at what they do. The difference is usually a matter of effort.

Not necessary since it is so. Look around, read a few guides, and you'll see that too.

Here's one:
Cheers!

Ha ha. That’s 10 minutes of my life I’m never going to get back thanks. At least he got some ad revenue for the weird cereal commercial half way through. Some times people just think/act like they know more. As I said a couple of times, you can’t ‘force’ someone to become ‘willing’ they have opposing meanings.

The issue was not whether something could be learnt once it’s been pointed out. I’d rather spend more time prepping for my game and you know actually playing rather than theory crafting, cheers.

I dedicate my time catering to things that improve 95% of play. I don’t allow the 5% to drive my activity. It’s not efficient, nor particularly fun for me, and it likely isn’t going to come up. Particularly when the end result isn’t rewarding for me or the people I play with.

 

[TheSword]

I would agree with A on this. I've played Twilight Cleric and I've seen others play. IT is poweful at low and mid levels, but generally not OP IMO and it is way outclassed at high levels, by many subclasses.

People talk about Twilight Sanctuary, but the best ability they have is actually the 300 foot darkvision IME. TS is good, situationally awesome, but it works better in the white room than it does in actual play. At high levels spells are a better use of your action.

I will add this anecdote - I've seen about 15 players die in the last 8 years of playing 5E, and one of those was a Wizard who died while I had up a Twilight Sanctuary. Something different with my action would have kept him from dying probably.

I think there are many above average abilities in there. The vision outranges every other darkvision creature in the game to my knowledge. Getting 25 temp hp every round or removing conditions for no ongoing cost was very useful, particularly when used early on. Flight and extra damage as ribbons. Good spell selection.

As I said, it was the player that started to find it all a bit uncomfortable. He started to self-censor himself. I think due to Twilight Sanctuary.

 

[Ancoulainn]

Ha ha. And some times people just think/act like they know more.

Well, if many others have heard about these interactions years ago or even developed them and you heard about them the first time today, I think that would qualify as knowing more.

The issue was not whether something could be learnt once it’s been pointed out. I’d rather spend more time prepping for my game and you know actually playing rather than theory crafting, cheers.

Unless playing involves using interesting spell interactions, you mean.

I dedicate my time catering to things that improve 95% of play. I don’t allow the 5% to drive my activity. It’s not efficient, nor particularly fun for me, and it likely isn’t going to come up. Particularly when the end result isn’t rewarding for me or the people I play with.

And if you had stuck to that philosophy and not butted your head in about something that others find rewarding and that you self-admittedly know nothing about, saying "not my cup of tea" would have covered everything you ultimately had to say.

 

[TheSword]

And if you had stuck to that philosophy and not butted your head in about something that others find rewarding and that you self-admittedly know nothing about, saying "not my cup of tea" would have covered everything you ultimately had to say.

Just a counter to your suggestion that not catering to optimizers was bad-wrong-fun / a failing DM / not interesting / lazy etc etc etc. And that your (and others) interpretation of ‘willing’ was the only one possible.

It’s a broad tent, and optimization is a subset of that tent not the whole. If you speak in absolutely you’re gonna find people push back on that.

 

[Zardnaar]

I've played it plenty of times. Never ever ran into issues. But I've heard that certain types of DMs don't want to deal with it, especially in low level campaigns. Never met one of them, though.

It's in Tasha's which is one of the standard/core books.

All their spells are from the PHB.

Its in the Exandria book. Graviturge. Twilight clerics widely banned. You have to convince a DM to say yes to Exandria stuff as well.

I wasn't comparing enchanter to obscure broken crap more phb wizards in 5.0. Its one of the better ones at lvl 10+.

 

[Ancoulainn]

Just a counter to your suggestion that not catering to optimizers was bad-wrong-fun / a failing DM / not interesting / lazy etc etc etc.

Actually, your first response was to

"There are plenty of interactions you can exploit. For example, cast Suggestion on a Dragon, cast Nystul's Magic Aura on the Dragon, and then cast Planar Binding on the Dragon. Or use Magic Jar to become a Duergar Despot to avoid Exhaustion when using Convergent Future. The oldfashioned Wish-Simulacrum-loop resulting in resistances against all damage types for the entire party. Infinite Magen as a Necromancer Wizard as long as you find enough quicksilver. The list goes on. If you want to break the game and if you're into powergaming, there's always a way. And as long as it's discussed with the DM beforehand - as everything should - it's all cool."

And your response started with

"This stuff makes me laugh so hard. All the exploits that rely on overcoming a clear and obviously necessary restriction."

My point that DMs need to do their homework came much, much later.

And that your (and others) interpretation of ‘willing’ was the only one possible.

The only one that is aligned with the wording of the rules and that doesn't involve bending over backwards. And given that you didn't know what you were talking about, that's ok. But this "for inexperienced DMs"-rhetoric, given how inexperienced you are with regards to 5e, isn't really working.

It’s a broad tent, and optimization is a subset of that tent not the whole. If you speak in absolutely you’re gonna find people push back on that.

The only one who spoke in absolutes in that regard was you. I emphasized the importance of session 0 and setting the rules for the campaign, whatever they may be.

Man, you flip-flop harder than a politician who was caught red-handed.

 

[TheSword]

Actually, your first response was to

"There are plenty of interactions you can exploit. For example, cast Suggestion on a Dragon, cast Nystul's Magic Aura on the Dragon, and then cast Planar Binding on the Dragon. Or use Magic Jar to become a Duergar Despot to avoid Exhaustion when using Convergent Future. The oldfashioned Wish-Simulacrum-loop resulting in resistances against all damage types for the entire party. Infinite Magen as a Necromancer Wizard as long as you find enough quicksilver. The list goes on. If you want to break the game and if you're into powergaming, there's always a way. And as long as it's discussed with the DM beforehand - as everything should - it's all cool."

And your response started with

"This stuff makes me laugh so hard. All the exploits that rely on overcoming a clear and obviously necessary restriction."

My point that DMs need to do their homework came much, much later.

The only one that is aligned with the wording of the rules and that doesn't involve bending over backwards.

The only one who spoke in absolutes in that regard was you. I emphasized the importance of session 0 and setting the rules for the campaign, whatever they may be.

Man, you flip-flop harder than a politician who was caught red-handed.

I stand by everything I said. Haven’t changed my mind once in this thread. Even after watching your video. Particularly that ‘willing’ is a necessary game balance marker to prevent spells with broad applications for allies being abused for hostile effects, and not something to try to overcome with sophistry.

 

[Ancoulainn]

Its in the Exandria book. Graviturge.

Chronurgy. Graviturge is the other in the Exandria book. Twilight Cleric is in Tasha's and since you said "Its also like the twilight cleric though as in most DMs wont allow it but its obscure book as well.", that's what we were talking about. At least as far as I could make out what that was supposed to say.

Twilight clerics widely banned.

Do you have data on this? Never encountered one.

You have to convince a DM to say yes to Exandria stuff as well.

Never had to. Was always standard. In fact, all that stuff like the Blood Hunter is generally allowed in my experience. If that's different for you, I'm sorry.

I wasn't comparing enchanter to obscure broken crap more phb wizards in 5.0. Its one of the better ones at lvl 10+.

It's not obscure just because you didn't think of it. But even if you leave out Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, Divination is still better. Not by as much, but still.

 

[Zardnaar]

Chronurgy. Graviturge is the other in the Exandria book. Twilight Cleric is in Tasha's and since you said "Its also like the twilight cleric though as in most DMs wont allow it but its obscure book as well.", that's what we were talking about. At least as far as I could make out what that was supposed to say.

Do you have data on this? Never encountered one.

Never had to. Was always standard. In fact, all that stuff like the Blood Hunter is generally allowed in my experience. If that's different for you, I'm sorry.

It's not obscure just because you didn't think of it. But even if you leave out Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, Divination is still better. Not by as much, but still.

Theres 8 wizards in phb. Divination better earlier but lvl 10 it really depends on DM encounter structure and those dice rolls. Ive seen diviners whiff a lot.
Tashas and Exandria both fall into ask the DM though. Ezandria feel ppl use it or own it. Twilight clerics widely considered to be OP often banned data isnt needed.