D&D 5E (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight

[Ancoulainn]

I stand by everything I said. Haven’t changed my mind once in this thread. Even after watching your video.

Well, either you know what you are talking about or you've heard about this the first time today. Which is it?

If it's the former, you can't argue that's it something a DM couldn't expect and if it's the latter, you have nothing to contribute to the discussion. And yet, you want to have both.

Particularly that ‘willing’ is a necessary game balance marker to prevent spells with broad applications for allies being abused for hostile effects,

You still have nothing to back up that claim, hmm?

and not something to try to overcome with sophistry.

You mean basic English!

 

[TheSword]

Well, either you know what you are talking about or you've heard about this the first time today. Which is it?

If it's the former, you can't argue that's it something a DM couldn't expect and if it's the latter, you have nothing to contribute to the discussion. And yet, you want to have both.

You still have nothing to back up that claim, hmm?

You mean basic English!

I mean you can insult all you like. It doesn’t change my points. My contribution is that willingness cannot be coerced and yes today is the first time I have ever thought I needed to make that point. Still worth making.

 

[Ancoulainn]

Theres 8 wizards in phb. Divination better earlier but lvl 10 it really depends on DM encounter structure and those dice rolls. Ive seen diviners whiff a lot.

The dice rolls are made after the rest and then you substitute them before the d20-test is rolled. There's no whiffing possible because you already know the dice roll.

Tashas and Exandria both fall into ask the DM though.

Nope! Tasha's is a core book. PHB, MM, DMG, TCoE, and XGtE are the core books of 5e.

Ezandria feel ppl use it or own it.

???

Twilight clerics widely considered to be OP often banned data isnt needed.

Not often banned. You're incorrect. Never encountered it. Never heard from somebody that they encountered it. Only heard it vaguely mentioned on YouTube channels that certain DMs banned it.

 

[Ancoulainn]

I mean you can insult all you like.

What insult? Didn't you say both?

It doesn’t change my points.

Nor does it give them value since they are not founded in the rules, but rather personal preferences. Again, "not my cup of tea" would have said the same.

My contribution is that willingness cannot be coerced

Which is a claim, not an argument to support said claim. You could have just said "nuh uh" and it would have the same weight.

and yes today is the first time I have ever needed to make that point. Still worth making.

You can rule like that at your table, but to say that there's any connection to 5e rules is simply untrue. You made it up.

 

[TheSword]

What insult? Didn't you say both?

Nor does it give them value since they are not founded in the rules, but rather personal preferences. Again, "not my cup of tea" would have said the same.

Which is a claim, not an argument to support said claim. You could have just said "nuh uh" and it would have the same weight.

You can rule like that at your table, but to say that there's any connection to 5e rules is simply untrue. You made it up.

it’s a really simple argument. Doesn’t need massive explanation. Forced =/= Willing.

 

[Ancoulainn]

it’s a really simple argument. Doesn’t need massive explanation. Forced /= Willing.

Except willing is defined as "your urging aligns with the monster’s desires" and Suggestion says "The Charmed target pursues the suggestion to the best of its ability.", thus it is the monster's desire to do so. Ergo, the urging does align with the monster's desire which makes them willing by 5e definition. Basic English! In contrast, there is nothing in the rules that would even suggest that they cannot be forced to be willing, especially since that is the entire purpose of Enchantment magic. It is not mind-control and it is not possession. It alters the targets thoughts, attitudes, and desires.

You can rule differently at your table, but that's the default RAW rule. And if you want to rule differently, you need to clarify that ahead of time.

 

[TheSword]

Except willing is defined as "your urging aligns with the monster’s desires" and Suggestion says "The Charmed target pursues the suggestion to the best of its ability.", thus it is the monster's desire. Ergo, the urging does align with the monster's desire which makes them willing by 5e definition. Basic English!

At the risk of repetition. If the monster desired it you wouldn’t need the suggestion. Suggestion works in spite of the monsters desires. Spells only do what they say in the description. Nothing in the spell text says it causes a creature to think a certain way. Only to take a course of action. Willing is a specific game term that the spell doesn’t reference at all. The influence rules specify a DM determines whether a creature is Willing, Indifferent or Unwilling.

Charmed =/= Willing.
Friendly =/= Willing.

You’re simply inferring that suggestion makes them Willing because it allows you to circumvent a caveat for little expenditure of resources.

I’d let you do it if it’s a bespoke Wish spell, with the usual chance to lose the spell. How does that sound?

 

[Ancoulainn]

At the risk of repetition. If the monster desired it you wouldn’t need the suggestion.

The point is that the spell creates that desire. That's what Enchantment magic does.

Suggestion works in spite of the monsters desires.

It doesn't say that in the spell's description.

Spells only do what they say in the description. Nothing in the spell text says it causes a creature to thinks a certain way.

Yes, it does. It says "have the Charmed condition for the duration" which is change in thinking and "The Charmed target pursues the suggestion to the best of its ability" which means it's invested in the task.

Only to take a course of action. You’re inferring that it makes them willing because it allows you to circumvent a caveat cheaply.

I'm not inferring. I quoted the text from the PHB with the respective passages.

Secondly, the point is not whether the target is willing before failing the save. The point is that it is willing after failing the save as failing the save creates that willingness because that's what Enchantment spells do. They charm, beguile, and entrance and that's not mind-control or coercion. Quite the opposite actually!

Willingness is given when the urging aligns with the monster's desires by 5e definition. The Suggestion spell creates that alignment. That it wasn't there before or wouldn't be there without the spell doesn't change that.

And if the suggestion is that the target is supposed to be a willing target for the caster's spells, then that's the suggestion the charmed target pursues to the best of its ability. The spell just says that the suggestion has to be described in no more than 25 words and that it has to be achievable. Your earlier contention that being willing or creating willingness would not be a "course of action" is inference and one that isn't even grounded in psychology, let alone 5e rules. Of course, it is a course of action. Thinking and other mental activities are actions.

 

[TheSword]

The point is that the spell creates that desire. That's what Enchantment magic does.

It doesn't say that in the spell's description.

Yes, it does. It says "have the Charmed condition for the duration" which is change in thinking and "The Charmed target pursues the suggestion to the best of its ability" which means it's invested in the task.

I'm not inferring. I quoted the text from the PHB with the respective passages.

Secondly, the point is not whether the target is willing before failing the save. The point is that it is willing after failing the save as failing the save creates that willingness because that's what Enchantment spells do. They charm, beguile, and entrance and that's not mind-control or coercion. Quite the opposite actually!

Willingness is given when the urging aligns with the monster's desires by 5e definition. The Suggestion spell creates that alignment. That it wasn't there before or wouldn't be there without the spell doesn't change that.

You’re inferring that. It doesn’t specify it in the spell description and the rules for Willing that you’re referring to in the Influence Action state clearly that it’s a DM determination.

Charmed does not make a person Willing either. It just give advantage on the check where a creature is Indifferent. Even Friendly won’t make an Unwilling creature Willing. The rules are pretty specific. Not even 5th level Dominate Person makes someone Willing.

Anyway, I’ve used the word Willing far many times for one thread and I’m Unwilling to keep going tonight.

Have fun.

 

[Ancoulainn]

You’re inferring that. It doesn’t specify it in the spell description and the rules for Willing state clearly that it’s a DM determination.

Charmed does not make a person Willing either. It just give advantage on the check where a creature is Indifferent. Even Charmed won’t make an Unwilling creature Willing. The rules are pretty specific. Not even 5th level Dominate Person makes someone Willing.

Ah, you finally took a look at the rules. Even if the best you can do is repeat what I said way earlier, it's at least something.

But it is concerning the Influence Action, not the Suggestion spell. I also never said that it would be the charm effect that creates the willingness. I said that the charm effect is already by itself a change in thinking which you claimed wouldn't occur.

But the Suggestion spell creates the willingness and aligns the creature's desires with the urging. The Suggestion has to be a course of action, described in no more than 25 words, and achievable. "Be willing to the spells I cast on you" fulfills all these requirements because, of course, creating one's own willingness is a course of action, it is less than 25 words, achievable, and doesn't obviously deal damage to the target or its allies. Mental activities like thinking are actions and it says nothing in the spell that the course of action is limited to physical activity. And the charmed target pursues the suggestion to the best of its ability. The suggestion could equally be "like me", "love me", "be my friend", or anything else along those lines and per the spell's description, the creature would do its best to like me, love me, or be my friend. And nothing would change if I added a qualifier as in "like me willingly".

Thus, your only way out here would be to say that the target couldn't make himself willing, thus that the course of action would be unachievable. It would be nonsense because, of course, is that possible as phenomena like autosuggestion illustrate, but that would at least be something founded in the rules.

Anyway, I’ve used the word Willing far many times for one thread and I’m Unwilling to keep going tonight.

Have fun.

Be my guest, cheers, and good night!