D&D 5E (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight

[UngeheuerLich]

The same applies to you.

Correct!

Correct. But "becoming willing" or "making oneself willing" involves a verb. And I think I said that now half a dozen times. "To become" and "to make" are verbs that describe a change of state. You keep forgetting that.

Yes, which again was my argument in the first place. The more you repeat it, the weirder it gets.

That's your opinion based conveniently on ignoring that "to make" and "to become" are verbs.

Nah, I leave that pretending, inventing, and assuming to you along with the patronizing and the condescension.

Toodles!

But should you be interested in learning more about this, check out this video:

Those videos are made by fans. Not official. I did not watch this in particular, but they often use dubious rules interpretations.

I'd still use the 5.0e spell, because "go bleep yourself" is a valid 5.5e suggestion...

 

[Ancoulainn]

I don't see autosuggestion or psychology in the rules. If you aren't going to accept RAI, we don't have to accept PhD articles.

Correct! You don't have to accept anything. No one forces you and I frankly don't care what you accept. I makes no difference to me either way.

Auto suggestion fails on it's face by the way, as it's not a conscious decision. And Suggestion makes the subject carry it out to the best of its ability. It can only cause conscious decisions to happen.

Let me quote the passage again and highlight the relevant part to illustrate why that's wrong:

"Autosuggestion is a psychological technique related to the placebo effect, ... . It is a form of self-induced suggestion in which individuals guide their own thoughts, feelings, or behavior. The technique is often used in self-hypnosis. ... [Dr. Parkyn] defined it as the process by which an individual consciously or unconsciously directs influence upon the involuntary mind."

I can quote further:

Parkyn described the two aspects as the voluntary and involuntary parts of a single mind. The involuntary mind, he explained, governs every function of the body, serves as the seat of the emotions, and holds the complete record of experience. It operates automatically and cannot reason independently, yet remains open to the influence of the voluntary mind, which is the conscious and reasoning faculty. Through repetition and focused attention, the voluntary mind can stimulate, restrain, or completely alter the operations of the involuntary mind.

As I said, unless you have a PhD in Psychology, I suggest we agree to disagree on this.

On a sidenote: The difference between your "RAI" and the science behind autosuggestion is that the former is based on "Trust me, Bro" and, unless you spoke with Jeremy Crawford or one of the other designers and creators, solely your own opinion and the latter is actual science. And while there is your opinion, there's also my opinion, Pack Tactics' opinion, and a lot of other opinions and they are all equal.

 

[Ancoulainn]

Those videos are made by fans. Not official. I did not watch this in particular, but they often use dubious rules interpretations.

Of course, they are not official rulings. They are just expressing their opinions just like us. In some cases, they spoke with the creators and designers at conventions which may have a little more weight. But either way, whether it's dubious is for everyone to decide by themselves and no one gets to dictate what's right or wrong for anyone but themselves. We have the RAW and we have the Errata and everything else is just opinions.

I'd still use the 5.0e spell, because "go bleep yourself" is a valid 5.5e suggestion...

Unless that would fall under "...not involve anything that would obviously deal damage to the target or its allies" which I don' think we should elaborate at this point. Although, does that involve emotional damage...nah, nah, let's not.

 

[Maxperson]

Correct! You don't have to accept anything. No one forces you and I frankly don't care what you accept. I makes no difference to me either way.

Let me quote the passage again and highlight the relevant part to illustrate why that's wrong:

"Autosuggestion is a psychological technique related to the placebo effect, ... . It is a form of self-induced suggestion in which individuals guide their own thoughts, feelings, or behavior. The technique is often used in self-hypnosis. ... [Dr. Parkyn] defined it as the process by which an individual consciously or unconsciously directs influence upon the involuntary mind."

I can quote further:

Parkyn described the two aspects as the voluntary and involuntary parts of a single mind. The involuntary mind, he explained, governs every function of the body, serves as the seat of the emotions, and holds the complete record of experience. It operates automatically and cannot reason independently, yet remains open to the influence of the voluntary mind, which is the conscious and reasoning faculty. Through repetition and focused attention, the voluntary mind can stimulate, restrain, or completely alter the operations of the involuntary mind.

As I said, unless you have a PhD in Psychology, I suggest we agree to disagree on this.

On a sidenote: The difference between your "RAI" and the science behind autosuggestion is that the former is based on "Trust me, Bro" and, unless you spoke with Jeremy Crawford or one of the other designers and creators, solely your own opinion and the latter is actual science. And while there is your opinion, there's also my opinion, Pack Tactics' opinion, and a lot of other opinions and they are all equal.

You do realize that being able to do that consciously is a learned skill, right? You can't just do it because someone cast Suggestion on you. It takes time and practice to be able to do that voluntarily.

And if you read your quote up there, it requires repetition and focused thought, so it ain't happening in 6 or 12 seconds anyway.

 

[Ancoulainn]

You do realize that being able to do that consciously is a learned skill, right? You can't just do it because someone cast Suggestion on you. It takes time and practice to be able to do that voluntarily.

Which has nothing to do with your contention that one could not make oneself willing. It's been illustrated that you can. If anything, this could fall under the rubric of whether the suggestion does "sound achievable" which could have been a valid point if you had made it, regardless of the fact that I already mentioned it as well a few days back.

It also says "The technique is often used in self-hypnosis", not that self-hypnosis would be the only way to do it nor that autosuggestion would be the only application of self-hypnosis.

But it is, in fact, not that difficult to learn as this basic article illustrates: How to Perform Self-Hypnosis for Personal Growth

And if you read your quote up there, it requires repetition and focused thought, so it ain't happening in 6 or 12 seconds anyway.

You are seriously now trying to argue that when we're talking about magic in a TTRPG?! You're truly precious! Next, you're going to tell me that you can't actually use a drop of honey for autosuggestion or self-hypnosis, right? Let me help you with that: It's magic! It's not real! It's a game! With magic, you can skip the repetitions and get it done on the first try. Or at least my Familiar said so.

Oh, and did you mean that quote of mine up there? The one that I already had to post three times? That one?

But there are quite a few articles on the web about this. If you're interested in continuing this conversation, I suggest you familiarize yourself with them. However, if you just want to continue arguing for arguing's sake, I guess that's fine as well. If so, let me have some fun with it and guess what you're going to say next: You're going to say that what I'm talking about concerning Suggestion has nothing to do with Personal Growth to which I will reply that if it can be used that way, then it also can be used the opposite way. Either that or something with honey! Woohoo, feels like being in Vegas!

 

[Maxperson]

Which has nothing to do with your contention that one could not make oneself willing.

If you can't do it, Suggestion can't make you do it. I mean, it's not rocket science. You have to know how to do it for you to be able to do it to the best of your ability. The best of the monster's ability is failure to accomplish the goal.

But it is, in fact, not that difficult to learn as this basic article illustrates: How to Perform Self-Hypnosis for Personal Growth

Excellent. You still have to show it was learned. Zero knowledge = failure to be able to do it. It also, if you actually read the article, involves quite a bit of time to prepare yourself. So not only does your Suggestion victim fail to be able to do it, if you do manage to find some monster that is capable, say a Mind Flayer, it would take a while to get there. Not a matter of a few rounds.

You are seriously now trying to argue that when we're talking about magic in a TTRPG?! You're truly precious! Next, you're going to tell me that you can't actually use a drop of honey for autosuggestion or self-hypnosis, right? Let me help you with that: It's magic! It's not real! It's a game! With magic, you can skip the repetitions and get it done on the first try. Or at least my Familiar said so.

Yes! It's maaaaagic, and maaaaagic has ruuuuuuules. Maaaaagic, can't do what you are waaaaaaanting it to do. At least not the Suggestion spell.

See, I can use the same tone you can. You want to scale it back? I give back what I get.

 

[TheSword]

If a player requires me to read web pages on psychological theory in order to understand their interpretation of Rules as Written then it’s not looking good for them.

 

[Ancoulainn]

If you can't do it, Suggestion can't make you do it. I mean, it's not rocket science. You have to know how to do it for you to be able to do it to the best of your ability. The best of the monster's ability is failure to accomplish the goal.

Excellent. You still have to show it was learned. Zero knowledge = failure to be able to do it. It also, if you actually read the article, involves quite a bit of time to prepare yourself. So not only does your Suggestion victim fail to be able to do it, if you do manage to find some monster that is capable, say a Mind Flayer, it would take a while to get there. Not a matter of a few rounds.

Let me refer you back to the wording of the spell. It says "The suggestion must sound achievable". It does not say "The suggestion must be achievable." So, none of that is relevant in any way after it has been been shown that it generally can be done.

If you want to rule based on "The Charmed target pursues the suggestion to the best of its ability" and say that the creature lacked the ability to achieve it that's a possibility as I said before. But that's grasping at straws at this point.

Yes! It's maaaaagic, and maaaaagic has ruuuuuuules. Maaaaagic, can't do what you are waaaaaaanting it to do. At least not the Suggestion spell.

Rules that you made up and want to dictate for everyone else as the default. How about you rule at your table how you like to play it, leave other people to play the way they want, and stop acting like you knew better than anybody else what the "default rules" are? I've suggested now multiple time that we could just agree to disagree, but you just can't have that, can you?

See, I can use the same tone you can. You want to scale it back? I give back what I get.

There was no change in your tone since your first posting to me, except that you sound more and more desperate. But neither has bothered me the least bit. I would have to be personally invested to care.

To clarify, the only reason why I am pushing back is because I don't tolerate anyone dictating to others what is right or wrong or default or normal in a game or anywhere else when it hurts no one. That applies to you in the same manner as I applied to the other guy. Everyone decides those things for themselves and bullying is a no-go! That's how the game is intended to be played, at least according to the designers, and especially in niche areas like individual spell interactions and not core class mechanics or core build features. It's not like I stated that Extra Attack would stack or that Rangers don't need to maintain concentration on Hunter's Mark, even though most agree that they should have been designed this way. I don't condone bossing others around when it comes to lifestyle choices and I don't condone that in any other area of life where people stick their noses where they don't belong. And given that you couldn't leave it alone after I suggested multiple times that we should agree to disagree illustrates that this is exactly the issue here. I didn't suggest that for no reason. After all, you had already stated your opinion and had no reason to continue unless that was your goal. What you think is default, right, or wrong or whatever is immaterial to me. I don't know you and I don't play with you. I literally couldn't care less! But this attitude is a problem by principle.

 

[ECMO3]

You are correct on a few things here that I overlooked. However, there are some particular "misunderstandings" that need addressing.

I never [talked about Fighters summon Dragon AND Telekenisis]

Your exact words on post 539 (undeline and bold are mine):


Did they use Arcane Abeyance to bind Summon Dragon into the bead, given it to a party member, preferably a Fighter or Artificer, or their familiar, then cast Summon Dragon normally to have two summons on the battlefield at the same time. Have they used Telekinesis to burn through legendary resistances and then forced a fail to virtually incapacitate?


Now that explicitly talks about fighters using Summon Dragon and I would argue the commonly inferred meaning is other party members are going to use AA for Telekenisis, otherwise what is the reason for Telekenisis being in that paragraph at all.

Secondly, I said

meaning that I was talking about immunity to the Poisoned condition and immunity to the Charmed condition and not about

Well you may have meant Immunity, but you said resistance, which is quite common and more to the point I did not "ignore" either but addressed both explicitly before you posted that. Do you need me to post the thread numbers where I addressed them.

So, if you feel the need to write another response, could you please respond to what I actually said? It would be most appreciated!

Here is what you actually said:

"Also, you keep deliberately ignoring that both the Charmed and the Poisoned condition are two of the most resisted conditions in the Monster Manual."

Poison resistance gives you advantage on saves against poison, that does not matter because there is no save in Selune's Viper. On other spells it does matter. There is not an actual charm resistance that I know of, but Fey Lineage gives you advantage on Charms.

So what you said was "resisted", not "immunity" I can't read your mind and tell what you meant to say, I can only go by what you post.

So, if you feel the need to write another response, could you please respond to what I actually said? It would be most appreciated!

If you actually meant "immunity" you were WRONG as I addressed immunity multiple times before you posted that. I did not "ignore" immunity to either the charmed condition or the poisoned condition as you claimed I did.

I posted about immunity to charm in post #536 and commented on poison immunity on post #585, so as a point of fact I did not "ignore" either immunity to charmed or immunity to poisoned.

Is that what you wanted?

I guess it's possible that an entire community and several YouTubers simply didn't think of it and you are the only one who figured it out because even though

I am not the only one

he still ranked Enchanters lower than the Chronurgy Wizard.

In the very first post I made on this I specifically stated that a Goblin Enchanter is not the most powerful at every level, but it is the most powerful Wizard at the most levels from 2-20. Treantmonk's ranking only weights things heavily if they are useful at lower levels and he explains this in the begining of the video. His rankings, by his own wording, are biased towards lower level play.

A lot of the power in Enchantment Wizard is at high level. For example, being able to twin Dominate Person does not come online until 10th level, Twin Ottos Dance-11th level, Twin Dominate Monster 15th level. Twin Silvery Barbs AT WILL does not come into play until 18th level. Treantmonk did not consider such things in his ranking because it is focused on low levels.

In addition he also did not consider race.

 

[Ancoulainn]

Your exact words on post 539 (undeline and bold are mine):

Did they use Arcane Abeyance to bind Summon Dragon into the bead, given it to a party member, preferably a Fighter or Artificer, or their familiar, then cast Summon Dragon normally to have two summons on the battlefield at the same time. Have they used Telekinesis to burn through legendary resistances and then forced a fail to virtually incapacitate?


Now that explicitly talks about fighters using Summon Dragon and I would argue the commonly inferred meaning is other party members are going to use AA for Telekenisis, otherwise what is the reason for Telekenisis being in that paragraph at all.

It does talk about using Summon Dragon, but what you infer here regarding Telekinesis is on you. I didn't say what you assumed and that should be fairly obvious given that you had to add to change "used Telekinesis" to "used it to use Telekinesis". Why I said that becomes clear when you look at the last part "force a fail" which is referencing Convergent Future, the Chronurgy Wizard feature that forces a creature to fail a saving throw, but I already explained that in my previous post. And if you had seen the Chronurgy Wizard in action, as you claim, you had known about their level 14 feature and that it allows to force failed saves.

Well you may have meant Immunity, but you said resistance, which is quite common and more to the point I did not "ignore" either but addressed both explicitly before you posted that. Do you need me to post the thread numbers where I addressed them.

I did not use the word resistance. I said that these conditions are the most often resisted - because a comparable adjective to immunity does not exist - and then went on in the next sentence to provide numbers concerning the immunities. It is quite strange that concerning the statement about Summon Dragon and Telekinesis, you were incapable to identify that those were talking about two separate features of the Chronurgy Wizard and took the paragraph as one unit and now you do the very opposite.

You know, "sorry, I misunderstood" is a totally acceptable answer.

Here is what you actually said:

"Also, you keep deliberately ignoring that both the Charmed and the Poisoned condition are two of the most resisted conditions in the Monster Manual."

Poison resistance gives you advantage on saves against poison, that does not matter because there is no save in Selune's Viper. On other spells it does matter. There is not an actual charm resistance that I know of, but Fey Lineage gives you advantage on Charms.

So what you said was "resisted", not "immunity" I can't read your mind and tell what you meant to say, I can only go by what you post.

And yet, if you had taken the two sentences together, it had become clear. But you had to look at them separately because - similar to the 7-attacks-situation - it gave you an opportunity to patronize. Sorry, I'm not buying that in the paragraph about Summon Dragon and Telekinesis, you couldn't tell that one was about Arcane Abeyance and the other was about Convergent Future and could only take it as one paragraph about one thing ("otherwise what is the reason for Telekenisis being in that paragraph at all"), yet here, you suddenly do the opposite, even though you know that Poison Resistance has no impact on Selune's Viper, so why would I talk about that unless, as it seems to be a theme with, think that only you know. And if you don't know of any Charm resistance, why would you talk about Fey Lineage instead of putting two and two together? It makes you look like you're seeking out opportunities to patronize because, yeah, you can't read my mind here, you go off on a tangent with 7-attacks, then can't decide whether it actually happened or whether it was the same, and can't figure out what "forcing a fail" means despite allegedly knowing the subclass we're talking about.

And just to make sure you understand what I'm saying here. You say

There is not an actual charm resistance that I know of, but Fey Lineage gives you advantage on Charms.

and

Poison resistance gives you advantage on saves against poison, that does not matter because there is no save in Selune's Viper.

, thus two things that you knew were not applicable and you still didn't put 2 and 2 together and were confused. And you were equally confused about my mentioning of Telekinesis despite allegedly being familiar with the Chronurgy Wizard including their level 14 feature Convergeant Future, which can force successes or fails, even though I mentioned the name of that feature several time. And you needed to correct the 7-attacks-sitatution because you didn't think of Polearm Master, even though I said Polearm Master and counting to 7 is not that difficult. And there's absolutely nothing you could have done to get any of this right?! I'm not buying that!

If you actually meant "immunity" you were WRONG as I addressed immunity multiple times before you posted that. I did not "ignore" immunity to either the charmed condition or the poisoned condition as you claimed I did.

I was not WRONG, because you addressed it by saying that you had other spells at your disposal which applies to every other Wizard as well and therefore makes the argument that the Enchanter is, in fact, not as good as you claim. If every other Wizard can do it, it's a point against a subclass, not for it.

I posted about immunity to charm in post #536 and commented on poison immunity on post #585, so as a point of fact I did not "ignore" either immunity to charmed or immunity to poisoned.

Is that what you wanted?

Did you at any of these place acknowledge that the Enchanter loses two of his subclass features against approximately 20% of enemies and that something like that does not happen to most other Wizard subclasses?

I am not the only one

Yes, you are technically not the only one. You are one of very few who think that.

He did not consider race synergies and he only weighted things heavily if they were useful at lower levels in that ranking.

A race synergy that either applies to all Wizards or that particularly applies to the Enchanter, but is only seen by you.

In the very first post I made on this I specifically stated that a Goblin Enchanter is not the most powerful at every level, but it is the most powerful Wizard at the most levels from 3-20.

Yes, that's what you said. And? You're the one of very few who think that.

For example, being able to twin Dominate Person does not come online until 10th level, Twin Ottos Dance, 11th level, Twin Dominate Monster 15th level.

Yeah, neat, not very impressive. Not the majority of the community. Every Sorcerer with Twin Spell metamagic can do that. Every other Wizard can upcast spells. It's not entirely for free, true, but the number of spells that only the Enchanter can twin in this manner is very limited. Everyone can twin Hold Person. Everyone can twin Hold Monster. Everyone can twin Hideous Laughter. Only Enchanters can twin Dominate Monster and Irresistible Dance, but in those cases, we have the common Immunity to the Charmed condition factored in again. So, none of that is great.

Twin Silvery Barbs AT WILL does not come into play until 18th level.

Nobody twins Silvery Barbs. And the Chronurgy Wizard effectively gets two free uses at level 3 as their subclass feature Chronal Shift. And you can get another free use at level 1 with Magic Initiate and another at level 4 with Fey-Touched. You can cast both of these once per day without using a spell slot as per the 5.5e rules.

And you're thinking of the 2014 Wizard. The 2024 Spell Mastery feature says "You have achieved such mastery over certain spells that you can cast them at will. Choose a level 1 and a level 2 spell in your spellbook that have a casting time of an action." And that was a major discussion when 5.5e released because most people wanted to grab Silvery Barbs and Shield here and can't, because those spells have the casting time of a Reaction, not Action. If you had the experience with 5.5e you claim, in particular with Wizards, and had paid attention during the discussions, you'd have known that.

Treantmonk did not consider such things in his ranking because it is focused on low levels.

I only mentioned Treantmonk because he has among the most favorable view of the Enchanter. Aside from him and the Dungeon Dudes in their Tier List, many other content creators don't think it's even worth talking about. And I agree with them and disagree with you because their opinion is more founded in actual game mechanics and therefore has more weight.

In addition he also did not consider race.

Which only makes a relevant different according to you and for no valid reason. There is nothing about the Enchanter that makes the Goblin better suited for them than they would be for any other Wizard subclass. It surely gives the Enchanter a boost, but it also gives all other Wizard subclasses a boost and the relative power ranking between the subclasses remains the same.

But as long as you enjoy yourself, none of this matters. But it wasn't me who butted his head in to tell everyone he knows better than the vast majority of the community. But you're not that special and what you know is also not that special. You just have an opinion and like the subclass. That's all and it's fine.