NOT AN EDITION WARS THREAD: 1E'ing 3E

[greywulf]

A big chunk of the minis I use are 1e minis.

Well that's alright then

 

[interwyrm]

4. Strictly limit the classes with demihumans can take. Call them demihumans. To their face.

Guffaw.

 

[BroccoliRage]

I don't want this to turn into a edition wars thread, please

What I would like to ask is how would you make the 3.x game feel more like 1E in play.

By this I don't mean, adding racial level limits or making up a new XP chart for each class.

By this I mean: What would you add or change mechanically or thematically with the rules to make 3.x graviate more towards the 1E/OD&D type feel (I know..I know..somewhat of an intangible, but humor me )

e.g.

Might you alter the EL/CR/XP system? Change the power curve?

What feats would you add/delete/modify? (e.g. remove some of the more extravagant combat feats for fighters...nix or possibly modify item creation feats for Magic-Use...errr..Wizards..etc)

Modifications to some of the more classic/common spells?

Add/delete/modify some class abilities to certain classes? get rid of some classes period?

deletion of entire subsystems? Not someting like "skills", as the rogue would get hosed...but perhaps..and this is just an example...AoOs...or add in a different initiative system?

These are the type of things I'm interested in hearing from the ENworld community. I realize much of 1E's appeal was in Gygax's writing style..or the various original module writers. And that it was influenced heavily by the classic fantasy literary sources and did not have modern fantasy/sci-fantasy/sci-fi and anime styles influnces whatsoever. These types of things certainly had alot of impact. But I'm more interested in rules applications.

And yes I know about and own C&C. I'm asking specifically about changes to the current D&D rules system.

Thanks for your input!

1. Buy the 1e AD&D DMG and PHB.

2. READ them.

3. Take what you like and port it over to 3e. Leave what you don't like out.

If you already have C&C, then I don't know what else to tell you.

 

[xrpsuzi]

Besides the other things mentioned, such as the comparative rarity of magic in 1e and a slower XP progression, the thing I notice the most is the speed of combat. From my experience, things moved faster in 1e. In 3e, the combats took forever. Not that is a bad thing at the right times, but the increase in mechanics does slow the play down. Just compare a 1e monster stat block to a 3e. I don't know how to break down the 3e mechanics to feel more like 1e play without just playing 1e (or as someone mentioned, using OSRIC as a conversion gateway to adapt 3e material).

Something that I also think of when I think of 1e is "Run Away!" It seems like in the 1e modules, there were times when you weren't suppose to fight something, and surviving was more important. However, in 3e, it seems like a shift in expection of play. You should have a dragon that's appropriate for a party of 4th level characters. Again, not good or bad, but something I perceive as different between the style of play between the two editions in question. The suggestions of playing old mods or picking up OSRIC material may bring back that feeling.

And well, you already know about Castles & Crusades.

-Suzi

 

[Aus_Snow]

C&C.

Sorry, but that is (now that I've looked over that system some more) by far the best alternative I can think of, that would meet your requirements.

 

[AFGNCAAP]

Well, sans OSRIC, here's some ideas:

• Use fixed XP awards for opponents, as per the optional rules from Unearthed Arcana.
• Though you could forbid access to certain classes by race, how about providing each race with an Unfavored Class entry? If a character of a certain race takes levels in certain class(es) or multiclasses in said class(es), they take an XP penalty?
• Get rid of the special material-based/AL-based DRs for most monsters, and replace them with DR/special material or magic or DR/+X requirements.
• Maybe have fixed/set bonus feats as PCs advance--all 1st level Fighters get Weapon Focus; all 4th-level Fighters get Weapon Specialization, etc.
• Have fixed skill progressions: for example, all 1st-level Rogues begin with max ranks in Open Lock, Disable Device, Move Silently, Hide, Search, and Sleight of Hand, and 2 other class skills of choice, +/- bonuses from race or Int modifier. 1st-level Wizards start with max ranks in Spellcraft and 1 other skill of choice +/- Int/race bonuses; 1st-level Clerics start with max ranks in Heal and 1 other skill of choice +/- Int/race bonuses; etc.
• Require multiclassed characters to advance evenly between classes (advance in 1 class 1 level, then in the other class next level, etc.). Maybe also require them to then advance into a PrC along those lines (like a wizard/cleric has to take the Mystic Theurge PrC ASAP).
• Have clerics begin play with preset domains based on deity selected or alignment chosen (rather than picking & choosing domains).
• Disallow wizards to become specialists: instead, use other core classes to represent specialist mages (like beguiler for illusionists, warmage for evokers, dread necromancer for necromancers, etc.). Or, OTOH, require sorcerers to be specialist mages instead (& thus unable to be generalists)--the limited number of spells known & increased spells per day seems to fit the mold.
• Start assigning average Hit Points by level (as per the optional rule in the DMG) instead of rolling HP once the characters hit 10th level.
• Have all PCs get the Leadership feat at 9th level, rather than choosing their feat at 9th.
• Write up stats for various PCs races with levels in an NPC class.
• Limit item special abilities; either a weapon has any sort of generic +X bonus, or it has a set +X bonus along with a set special ability (or set of special abilities), like a shapechanger bane weapon will always be a +1 weapon (and thus, a +3 vs. shapechangers).
• Add initiative modifiers to weapons based on their category: light weapons give a +2 to initiative, one-handed weapons give a +0 to initiative, and two-handed weapons give a -2 to initiative. Purely ranged weapons only (bows, slings, crossbows, etc.) have a +0 to initiative, but the firing rates are good enough (like the standard action-shoot, move action-reload for light crossbows).
• Drop the Max Dex Bonus for armor (though keep the Skill Check Penalty and ASF).
• Universally switch low-light vision & darkvision to infravision (if you really want to).

I'm sure there's some other methods, but these are the ones that came to mind.

 

[dcas]

I would consider moving to a system of rolling for initiative every round, with actions declared prior to rolling, rather than the cyclical initiative of 3e. Also consider role-playing penalties for adopting certain races or classes, and restrict multi-classing by making characters train to adopt a level in a new class. JMHO.

 

[Aaron L]

Honestly, no-one has ever explained to my satisfaction how the 'feel' of 3E differs from 1E except as far as magical treasure goes.

Me either. Our 3E games run pretty much the same as our 1E games did. Our style of play hasn't changed much at all. Magic items are more obvious, but that's about all that's changed. The mechanics are different, but the feel remains the same, for us. Even in our 1E games we had an ambitious Magic-User who started a mage guild that produced custom magic items on commission, and common magic items "off the rack" to a certain extant.

What I'd like is a detailing in the CR system explaining how more or less difficult a monster would be depending on how you varied the amount of magical equipment of a party. A low magic CR and a high magic CR. I guess you possibly could just increase the CR of everything by 2 or 3 or something, but some creatures will be an even greater challenge than that to a low magic party. Maybe a line like "The CR of dragons is increased by 5 against characters with a low level of magical equipment."

 

[thedungeondelver]

Let's see...toss the lockstep XP progression chart, reintroduce class-specific charts.

I'd go back to more specific saves, but I'd keep them stat-based like they are in 3e.

Some people have a problem with using negative numbers. I don't, but some people do. So armor classes would stay the way they are.

I'd reintroduce weapon-v-armor type penalties or bonuses.

I'd more severely restrict classes -v- alignments. No lawful good thieves, thanks.

I'd introduce a multi-classing system more akin to 1e than what is currently in use.

I would not reintroduce dual-classing. That would be a "kind of" multi-classing.

Sense motive would be removed. Nobody gets sense motive. Nobody.

Of course the whole CR/EL system is gone in my version. Kaput! Bye-bye!

Level drain works like it does in 1e now. No more "slowly goes away". Either you have the money to get restoration cast, or you fight your way back up to the old level. Period.

"Masterwork" shmasterwork. That's gone.

Paying XP to get magic items created - gone. Back to casting enchant an item and permanency to get items enchanted. Monetary and time cost as per AD&D.

I'd really, really pare skills down. Probably go with a "skill bundle" type system.

Fewer feats, and then very restricted by class.

That's all just off the top of my head.

 

[Dykstrav]

To me, the single biggest thing to get a 1E feel is to make everyone single-class. MAYBE let nonhumans multiclass with one other class, but require these classes to advance evenly. Allow one and only one prestige class for each character to shoot for and try to nix most of the 'combine two classes' prestige classes. Think assassins, archmages, hierophants, thief-acrobats, fochlucan lyrists. The sort of prestige classes that are more of an iconic version of a class than a new set of abilities.

Simpler adventure design. The first adventure should just be a dungeon outside of town that's rumored to be packed with monsters and treasure. No matter what story you want to tell, make the meat and potatoes of it delving into some sort of dungeon (haunted crypts, ruined towers, castles, temples dedicated to demon princes, a thieves' lair, whatever).

Of course, you should throw a few dragons at the party too.