NOT AN EDITION WARS THREAD: 1E'ing 3E

[Dragonhelm]

It may just be a matter of what adventures you run. I highly recommend the Dungeon Crawl Classics series of modules by Goodman Games. Even if you're not using C&C as a system, you could adapt some of the C&C modules over to 3e.

I also highly recommend Necromancer Games' Tome of Horrors and Eldritch Sorcery as supplemental guides. Heck, Necromancer is all about "3rd edition rules, 1st edition feel" so their products may be something you like.

Best of luck!

 

[Delta]

A few ideas: http://www.superdan.net/dndmisc/house_rules_1st_ed_flavor.html

 

[Celebrim]

For the most part, you don't want to go back. Third edition rules are the 1st edition rules I wished I had back when I was playing first edition. Most of the things you might obviously change are improvements to the game that deal with serious issues in earlier versions.

One big problem with saying, "I want a more 1st edition feel." is that everyone played 1st edition by house rules and had different standards so one persons 1st edition feel may not mean anything to someone else. But, here is my list.

1) Third edition monsters are more powerful than first edition monsters. Use the 3.0 monster manual rather than 3.5 and do your best to keep the power level of monsters down. Use the Tome of Horrors in preference to later official WotC monster manuals as it sticks more closely to the original 1st edition monsters. Anything non-unique over about CR 12 is either a traditional NPC or it doesn't exist. Monsters of higher CR will need thier constitutions and strength dropped by 4-8 points and other nerfs applied. Unique monsters should cap out at about CR 20, with CR 12-15 being more typical even for fiend lords.
2) Especially at higher levels, advancement is much faster in 3rd edition. Slow things down by giving out only half as much treasure and XP for encounters. Do not allow magic items to be purchased. They should be either found or manufactured by the PC's and err on the side of being stingy - remember there won't be any monsters over about CR 12. The excess treasure - being not convertable to magic items - should be used to build strongholds and acquire lands.
3) Leadership cannot be taken as a feat. Instead, all PC's get it as a bonus feat upon first obtaining nine levels in a single class.
4) Reintroduce some version of the armor vs. weapon type modifiers.
5) Add weapon speed modifiers to weapons based on thier size.
6) Play games with much greater expectation of long periods of travel through the wilderness. Create and use wandering encounter tables.
7) Allow non-humans to use gestalt classes. Elimenate multiclassing. Cap non-human level advancement except as rogues. Drop all PrC's and limit players to the core classes.
8) Insist that players earn their search, bluff, and diplomacy skill checks by describing in detail what they are doing. Give liberal modifiers to the circumstantial chance of success based on the detail and appropriateness of thier actions.
9) Run converted 1st edition modules.

Part of the first edition feel is very difficult to recapture. Part of first edition feel was the newness and strangeness of the experience. Players should feel as if they aren't in full control, as if anything wonderful or terrible could happen and probably will, that the world is dangerous and death is sudden, and there should be a certain sense of moving through the dark unsure of exactly what something is. Make sure you don't just tell players, "You see a X." Describe monsters, preferably in a non-standard not straight out of the monster manual way so that they don't know what they are facing necessarily. Make them map the dungeons. Don't correct thier mistakes. Don't put minitures on the table until you are absolutely sure you need them, and run fights without them if the area is tactically simple. Keep the map in your head and determine AoO's by fiat or just ignore them as not relevant to the situation. Make magic items as hard to identify and as strange as something from Call of Cthullu. Don't put labels on potions or scrolls. Don't give any 'tells' on other items. Scatter cursed items liberally amongst the treasure.

 

[Treebore]

With C&C, whether I am using a 3E module or a 1E module, it feels much like 1E to me. Especially the fun and enthusiasm I used to have has come back. Its a great combination of feelings to have come back.


So I obviously think C&C is a good answer that is already in publication. But hey, our tastes are all different to some degree, so who knows?

 

[molonel]

Me either. Our 3E games run pretty much the same as our 1E games did. Our style of play hasn't changed much at all. Magic items are more obvious, but that's about all that's changed. The mechanics are different, but the feel remains the same, for us. Even in our 1E games we had an ambitious Magic-User who started a mage guild that produced custom magic items on commission, and common magic items "off the rack" to a certain extant.

Me either. But some people feel that 1e has something for them that 3e lacks. Meh. I've tried to explain these things to someone who didn't play D&D, and it's like trying to explain the difference between Lutherans, Methodists and Baptists to someone outside the fold. Their eyes glazed over pronto.

I don't think the differences are as big as some people make them out.

Well, scratch that. I know they aren't.

 

[S'mon]

Rules-wise, C&C minus the Primes, would cover it, but sticking with 3e for the players' side, the GM can still get a more 1e feel by altering some campaign assumptions:

1. Demographics. NPC power curve should be roughly levels 1-10, not 1-20. A 10th level NPC in 3e is about as powerful as the top level NPCs in 1e (who were typically ca 10th-12th level, or 16th-18th if spellcasters).

2. Magic. Far less should be available to buy. Maybe divide gp caps by 10, eg metropolis 10,000gp, or even disallow all buys except potions & scrolls.

You may want to halve XP awards so PCs don't outgrow the setting.

Necromancer's Lost City of Barakus campaign module covers all this pretty well; around 30-40 sessions worth of play, a major city where highest NPCs are 9th, XP is halved, 10,000gp item cap. Running it felt far more 1e-ish to me than previous 3e campaigns.

Oh, probably best not to use prestige classes.

 

[Melan]

The closest I got to the damn thing with actually recognisable 3.0 rules featured the following changes:
1. Higher XP requirements for level advancement: 2000*current level instead of 1000*current level - so it goes like:
1st 0
2nd 2000
3rd 6000
4th 12000
5th 20000
etc.
This change comes from Necromancer's Player's Guide to the Wilderlands. In general, PCs and NPCs should be below 9th level; anything above should be considered very powerful.

2. Restrict choice to the core PHB classes. Don't allow multiclassing beyond two classes (I know 1e had tri-classed PCs, but you shouldn't! ).

3. Reintroduce level limits. I know you explicitely wrote you wouldn't like that, but consider: with 3e's multiclassing rules, demi-humans can very easily change classes once they hit their respective level caps. It is a pretty powerful thematic element in its own right.

4. Roll ability scores with the 4d6, drop lowest method, but roll them in order, no rearranging. I allowed two series, and also added a nasty little rule where a PC could sell his soul to a demon lord during character generation for +2 points...

5. In general, discourage stat creep. Don't allow stats above 18. That's very important. Don't allow spells and magic devices to boost stats above 18 (or 20, if you'd like). They should set an ability score to a certain value; say, 18 Str for Bull's Strength, 20 for Girdle of Giant Strength. This way, extraordinary scores really become extraordinary. And don't forget: in 3e, a 18 score already nets you a +4 bonus. That means a 1st level fighter with a 18 Str fights as well as a 5th level one! That's a lot!

6. Character death at -5 hit points. It puts the fear of God into the hearts of players.

That's what I can remember right now. Unfortunately, you would still be missing out on a lot of good stuff - especially the illusionist class, who, IMHO, really adds a lot to the game. Still, you can achieve a good feel with these additions. Not real AD&D, but something with a similar spirit. The rest is mostly world presentation, adventure design and window dressing.

 

[Melan]

Aha! I forgot:
7. Remove social skills from the game. Right now. KILL.

 

[Melan]

snip

Start thinking in the Century Gothic font. It is good for you.®

 

[Mycanid]

What I would like to ask is how would you make the 3.x game feel more like 1E in play. By this I mean: What would you add or change mechanically or thematically with the rules to make 3.x graviate more towards the 1E/OD&D type feel (I know..I know...somewhat of an intangible, but humor me! )
----
B.) These are the type of things I'm interested in hearing from the ENworld community. I realize much of 1E's appeal was in Gygax's writing style..or the various original module writers. And that it was influenced heavily by the classic fantasy literary sources and did not have modern fantasy/sci-fantasy/sci-fi and anime styles influences whatsoever. These types of things certainly had a lot of impact. But I'm more interested in rules applications.
----
And yes I know about and own C&C. I'm asking specifically about changes to the current D&D rules system.
Thanks for your input!

Perhaps for many of us this is a very hard question indeed ... and maybe there are many of us who have been searching for similar answers.

The post asks that feedback be given primarily from a "rules application" based emphasis. And unfortunately for myself I must confess to not being able to help much in that area. As far as I can guess, OSRIC and C&C seem to be the most commonly spoken examples to go to in this regard.

For me, though, I feel that this is at least secondary in the priorities in enabling the 3.x game to have more of a 1e feel. By secondary I do not that it is useless or unimportant - by no means. The rules of play, the setting, the adventures, the players themselves, etc. are all important and have their appropriate and necessary place. But they are not the most important factor.

For me the most important factor lies with the inspiration of the DM. If the DM is "on" the game mechanic and rules flows much more smoothly, the players are engaged, the setting comes alive, and the adventures are immersive.

Now most of us who began playing at an earlier age did so when our minds, bodies, emotions, souls, passions and creativity were bursting due to the natural process of growth, and it was "easier" for us to give ourselves over to the game - in a certain way we were more easily molded and swept away by the entire thing. When we had a good DM or when we had those rare precious moments of immersed realism that were a pure joy both at the time itself and to remember later these moments were usually more frequent ... THEN the game became really alive for us.

Now in the early years of the game creation the writers and creators of the game were also driven by similar inspirations themselves ... many times the written modules were "write-ups" of gaming sessions that had taken place earlier, for example. The source books were written more with this "newness of creative inspiration" ... yes they were artistically creative, to be sure. But they also had the newness and the "freshness" that is present with almost any lengthy creative endeavor.

So ... for me the answer is primarily with the DM, and that he strive to create his adventures and the like with a similar creativity as did those who did so in the early years. And I believe this is both very possible and crosses rule sets. The Goodman Games modules are a good example of this for me.

I think there is one specific quality about the early adventures, though, that helped to make the gaming more enjoyable to me personally, and that Molonel pointed out in an earlier post when he said

Make it feel smaller, and by smaller, I don't mean inferior.

This may deserve a totally different post in of itself ... and I have taken up way to much space here already.

Recently I made an attempt to write up a 3.5 Greyhawk based module that Treebore is currently criticizing, and had great hopes that it might be an example of how a fully 3.5 module rule wise could be written with a 1e feel. You could even say that it was partly an attempt to prove that it COULD be done. Whether others feel I succeeded or not is another matter, of course, but I hope for it to eventually be available as a freebie for others to download.

Of course, I am so blastedly slow in typing things up that when Treebore finishes it (he seems to be going much faster than I ever could) and I begin putting into word processing format (I wrote it out by hand) 4e will already be with us. :\

Again, sorry for such a long post folks....