D&D (2024) Not loving weapon mastery with beginners

[DrJawaPhD]

I feel like folks are trying to make this about martial vs. spell casters or something. It is not.

Yeah, except that it is completely is. Spell casters have always had far more complexity than this and no one bats an eye, because "it's magic". As soon as Martial classes get a very watered down tactical choice that adds a tiny additional amount of complexity, there are many people (far more than just you) complaining about how it's slowing the game to a crawl, ruining the game, etc (again not necessarily you here, you're being lumped in with others making similar arguments).

If Weapon Mastery is disrupting your game so much, just play without it until your new players are versed in the basic rules enough to add it back in. Posting about it on the forums isn't really going to get you anywhere other than people who enjoy letting Martial classes get some slightly increased complexity disagreeing with you and trying to convince you that you're wrong.

 

[Horwath]

Yeah, except that it is completely is. Spell casters have always had far more complexity than this and no one bats an eye, because "it's magic". As soon as Martial classes get a very watered down tactical choice that adds a tiny additional amount of complexity, there are many people (far more than just you) complaining about how it's slowing the game to a crawl, ruining the game, etc (again not necessarily you here, you're being lumped in with others making similar arguments).

If Weapon Mastery is disrupting your game so much, just play without it until your new players are versed in the basic rules enough to add it back in. Posting about it on the forums isn't really going to get you anywhere other than people who enjoy letting Martial classes get some slightly increased complexity disagreeing with you and trying to convince you that you're wrong.

yeah.
remove mastery, give everyone bonus feat to take, it's about same in power. And you're good to go.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

yeah.
remove mastery, give everyone bonus feat to take, it's about same in power. And you're good to go.

An extra feat is way more powerful than weapon mastery, and could end up being just as much additional complexity (depending on what you pick). Could still be worth considering though if you really want to get rid of weapon mastery but are afraid players will complain about it

 

[Horwath]

An extra feat is way more powerful than weapon mastery, and could end up being just as much additional complexity (depending on what you pick). Could still be worth considering though if you really want to get rid of weapon mastery but are afraid players will complain about it

Weapon master feat gives you mastery of ONE weapon when you take it, so every instance of mastery removed is worth ONE extra feat, according to WotC.

Now we can argue that again Weapon master feat is THE worst feat in the game, but as written, weapon masteries are really powerful features, which they are not, but we do know that WotC really struggles to get their numbers right.

Conjure minor elemental anyone?

 

[GreyLord]

When we play tested the weapon mastery rules in my home campaign, I liked them. They slowed things down slightly, but it was only two players and they knew what they were doing.

My new campaign at school has eight players, half of them brand new, three of whom have weapon mastery. And it is slowing combat down substantially. The things it adds - another decision point, more tactics, more rolls - are flaws not features for someone who is trying to learn a ton of stuff at once. Kinda wishing these had been an optional rule.

This is something I've commented on before, but not directly.

I've noted that D&D 2024 is more complex than 5e (2014) was. It's more than just having feats as required part of the game (no longer optional), it's some other items that have increased the complexity as well.

To me, this does not make the game easier to teach or learn to new players...at least currently (we'll see what the solutions are in a year with the new Starter Set).

I just played in a one shot this weekend. The Game basically turned into a 5e (2014) rules with new players (as I knew the rules pretty well and the DM was having a few difficulties explaining things out, I was utilized to help others create characters and they were grasping the 2014 ideas faster than the new ideas, so, we just switched it up right then and there).

I think weaponmasteries may be difficult for SOME (not all) new players to grasp on top of everything else that they are learning (and not just the masteries, normally it was also the properties of the weapons as well). I could have probably winged it as a DM and just included it by default when figuring things out, but not all DMs can do that.

 

[Daztur]

I was worried about this kind of thing happening with weapon masteries for some groups. I kept saying that in the Unearthed Arcana playtest feedback – the "face lift", diversity, and improved organization are great additions, but there are serious choke-points in this new version for new players when you dig in. Eventually I got exhausted giving feedback to them, realizing my view was a minority position and that WotC has different priorities.

Hope your gang manages to find a way to work with that part of the rules that works for you! Always fun to game with new folks!

Yeah 5.5e in general seems more focused on keeping existing players interested than drawing new players in.

 

[Horwath]

This is something I've commented on before, but not directly.

I've noted that D&D 2024 is more complex than 5e (2014) was. It's more than just having feats as required part of the game (no longer optional), it's some other items that have increased the complexity as well.

To me, this does not make the game easier to teach or learn to new players...at least currently (we'll see what the solutions are in a year with the new Starter Set).

I just played in a one shot this weekend. The Game basically turned into a 5e (2014) rules with new players (as I knew the rules pretty well and the DM was having a few difficulties explaining things out, I was utilized to help others create characters and they were grasping the 2014 ideas faster than the new ideas, so, we just switched it up right then and there).

I think weaponmasteries may be difficult for SOME (not all) new players to grasp on top of everything else that they are learning (and not just the masteries, normally it was also the properties of the weapons as well). I could have probably winged it as a DM and just included it by default when figuring things out, but not all DMs can do that.

you could narrow the options of feats for new players if you think that options are a problem.

Take for 1st level:

+3 skills
+1 skill, +1 expertise
+6 tools/languages
+2 HP per level
martial weapons
+2 armor categories
+1 saving throw
+1 fighting style
+1 DC(applies to a ALL DCs you have)
+1 damage with weapons, +2 for Heavy and Versatile weapons
+1 heal/damage per die rolled for spells
+1 ASI

for 4th level feats add that you can take 2 options. Skills, expertise, tools, saves, fighting styles, ASIs are repeatable.

all are "passives" you just write them in and they are always calculated in.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Yes, and because you would be removing almost every character class.

It’d be much simpler and faster though!

 

[DEFCON 1]

I feel like this is not too com plicated to explain. Maybe I need an example.

We have 90 minutes sessions after school. Combats are now taking much longer than they used to, and the new thing that has made them slower is weapon masteries with beginning players. So we don't get nearly as much done. There. That is the issue.

I feel like folks are trying to make this about martial vs. spell casters or something. It is not. It is a very specific issue with the new rules and beginning players.

Then what exactly are you looking for here?

- Are you looking just to have a place to complain about Masteries slowing your game down? Okay. Well, you've got that. You made a thread and you were able to speak your piece. Not much more needs to be said.

- Are you looking for suggestions on how to increase the speed of your games now? Because you've gotten a number of suggestions... just not using the Weapon Mastery system altogether (IE it doesn't need to be listed in the game as "Optional" for you to just MAKE it optional and remove it from your game); write down the Masteries on notecards for the players to reference; write out the character sheets with the important details of each attack and rider more obvious; etc. etc.

-Are you looking for ways to amend the Weapon Mastery rules to be easier to use? Because you've gotten suggestions for that as well... like not using the book masteries and instead just make a single "easy to use" mastery like a flat increase in damage for all weapons.

- Something else you want out of this thread that hasn't been detailed.

Tell us what it is you are looking for, and we'll thus be able to know what would constitute "threadcrapping" in this case. But you can't get mad that people are making Whataboutism arguments regarding Weapon Masteries versus Spellcasting when no one knows what kind of response you are actually looking for.

 

[payn]

While on one hand, this is fantastic advice – always great to have little cheat sheets for players grokking the game.

OTOH, this sort of stuff always makes me think of the "initiative tracker micro-economy" of products out there – magnetic strips, cards, standees, clockers, vinyl erasable boards, etc, etc. Which only become necessary once you've bought into the whole initiative as turn order system.

So on the other hand, it's a great solution... that exists because of a design decision/issue waaay upstream.

Yeah maybe the game should just be reduced to coin flipping for the new players.