D&D (2024) Not loving weapon mastery with beginners

[Zardnaar]

C&C is also a good game from what I hear. I thought the issue was your players not grokking complicated rules.

I'm playing to more or less side by side with 5E and can directly observe the differences.

Guts of the game is essentially DC12 or 18 and roll to hit with d20 and whatever your Plus to hit is.

One new player has +6 to hit and +6 or 7 on her checks.

2 sessions in she's figured out 5 or better on the d20 for her rogue skills.

 

[FrogReaver]

You shouldn't be the be the one traking them, your players should be. Institute a rule, if they forget to add the mastery effect on their turn then it's too late, they missed their chance.

That might slow things down more.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

The obvious solution to all these complaints is to properly streamline the system.

Make it so that absolutely nothing can modify or alter the standard basic "attack" move of every character. Things can add to it passively and unconditionally, and no options and no riders.

Then add side abilities that are functionally replacements for the basic attack option, but with riders and other effects.

Any player not advanced enough to use the optional abilities is free to just ignore them, while skilled players can utilise the full repertoire.

Example: Battle master maneuvers right now function as rider abilities on the basic attack, but I propose that they should be considered entirely separate abilities that deal damage independently of the basic attack.

This also works for things like sneak attack. Instead of sneak attack damage being added to particular attacks, sneak attack should be a separate ability that you can use only when you have advantage against that opponent.

The idea is to make each attack action as uncomplicated as possible, so that any decisions are removed from the actual attack action itself. Each decision point instead is shifted to the moment before you attack and which action you will take.

 

[Micah Sweet]

More complicated than 2014. Feats not optional, weapon masteries, more powerful PCs.

More powerful PCs speaks to new players, not vets. Feats are still de facto optional, as you can always choose ASI. I'll give you weapon mastery though.

 

[Zardnaar]

More powerful PCs speaks to new players, not vets. Feats are still de facto optional, as you can always choose ASI. I'll give you weapon mastery though.

Origin feats.

I suspect 4E tanking was due to new player complexity combined with alienating the existing player base.

Also remember ENworld is not remotely representative.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

I suspect 4E tanking was due to new player complexity combined with alienating the existing player base.

I doubt the bolded part. The people I saw introduced to 4E got into it much quicker than they did 3E.

 

[pukunui]

Origin feats.

I suspect 4E tanking was due to new player complexity combined with alienating the existing player base.

Also remember ENworld is not remotely representative.

I seem to recall Mearls saying that in retrospect 4e might have done better if they’d started with the simpler Essentials and then built off that. Instead it was too little too late.

While the 2024 PHB has clearly been rewritten with teaching new players how to play in mind, the game itself does feel kind of like an attempt at an AD&D 5e.

 

[MockingBird]

Not a fan. We tried playing with them but we have now opted out of them. I too wish this would have been an official optional thing.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I doubt the bolded part. The people I saw introduced to 4E got into it much quicker than they did 3E.

The book literally tells you the intended best options for default characters and keeps most abilities 100% self contained with one or two class riders. The idea that it wasn't newbie friendly is stunning.

The idea that the failure of the GSL to get third parties on board, the issues surrounding the VTT and the massive disinformation campaign surrounding the edition weren't major factors is galling.

 

[FrogReaver]

The obvious solution to all these complaints is to properly streamline the system.

Make it so that absolutely nothing can modify or alter the standard basic "attack" move of every character. Things can add to it passively and unconditionally, and no options and no riders.

Then add side abilities that are functionally replacements for the basic attack option, but with riders and other effects.

Any player not advanced enough to use the optional abilities is free to just ignore them, while skilled players can utilise the full repertoire.

Example: Battle master maneuvers right now function as rider abilities on the basic attack, but I propose that they should be considered entirely separate abilities that deal damage independently of the basic attack.

This also works for things like sneak attack. Instead of sneak attack damage being added to particular attacks, sneak attack should be a separate ability that you can use only when you have advantage against that opponent.

The idea is to make each attack action as uncomplicated as possible, so that any decisions are removed from the actual attack action itself. Each decision point instead is shifted to the moment before you attack and which action you will take.

Which directly leads to ‘game is too easy’ complaint mentioned by many.