D&D (2024) Not loving weapon mastery with beginners

[Valetudo]

Do weapon masteries even work with that cantrip?

 

[ECMO3]

Do weapon masteries even work with that cantrip?

Nick does not. The rest of them do.

Cleave even works on an AOO .... talk about sucks one bad guy moves and the other gets attacked.

 

[ECMO3]

that is not a game problem, that is people problem.

A common people problem if you play with new players

well, you are willingly making your life difficult with using true strike with cleave. Either house rule it that is basically same attack and should use same modifiers or try to avoid situations like this if someone cant keep track of it.

I did not say they could not keep track of it, I said it was difficult to keep track of ..... and I even made a mistake in the part you quoted (which I now corrected).

There are a number of houserules that would make it easier, but we are not really talking about houserules here. RAW they can make it a single modifier by using a pact weapon, but that requires another Invocation though.

Even if it is a single modifier, you have different damage modifiers for the main attack and the Cleave attack and as we have seen with 10 years of two-weapon fighting this kind of thing is very difficult for new players to wrap their mind around (and program their character sheet around).

 

[ezo]

here is a Topple idea:
when you beat your target AC by 5 or more, you can knock it prone. No save. No extra rolls.

If people don't mind the "marginal math" of 5 or more, then I would do this for every mastery.

Missed by 5 or less, you get Graze. Miss by more than 5, no Graze.

And so on.

For me, this removes the "auto" feature of the auto-masteries (which I abhore), but is more complexity so I am sure that is why it was never really considered by WotC.

why do you think that those 2 things are mutually exclusive?

I never said they were.

why cant people have fun in roleplay and story of the game and still want complicated and more immersive combat?

Want your cake and eat it, too, huh?

You can have complicated and immersive combat through the rules without having to include more character abilities all the time.

It sure benefits the story of your character and immersion when you can bash your opponent with your shield, send him flying 15ft and dropping prone while dealing some damage instead of; "12 damage", next attack; "13 damage", next; miss...

And rules can support that if you don't want to rely on fiat, but do you need an ability for it?

For example, a "shield bash" should be a standard rule as a means of making an attack. Why WotC never included this most basic attack option when IRL shield bashing was a viable attack is beyond me!?

Sending someone flying 15ft is a bit more gonzo than I like, but pushing them back 5 feet and possibly prone, sure. It is a shove. Already in the rules, even knocking them prone...

Separating "making an attack" from the weapon is an narrative / immersion method that handles most situtaions IME.

 

[Horwath]

A common people problem if you play with new players

New players or old player, looking for memes during session is kind of bad manners, especially in combat where your focus is required.

I did not say they could not keep track of it, I said it was difficult to keep track of ..... and I even made a mistake in the part you quoted (which I now corrected).

There are a number of houserules that would make it easier, but we are not really talking about houserules here. RAW they can make it a single modifier by using a pact weapon, but that requires another Invocation though.

Even if it is a single modifier, you have different damage modifiers for the main attack and the Cleave attack and as we have seen with 10 years of two-weapon fighting this kind of thing is very difficult for new players to wrap their mind around (and program their character sheet around).

Cleave should really be same modifier by default rules.
and damage should be minimum damage, that way you keep all modifiers and can just write in; Cleave damage: 6

wow, I found a use so GWF style can be useful, hehe.
minimum damage for greataxe with GWF style is 3+STR

 

[ECMO3]

New players or old player, looking for memes during session is kind of bad manners, especially in combat where your focus is required.

I get annoyed with it personally at times (both as a player and a DM) but I am a substantial minority here and the vast majority of players love posting and reading others memes during play. I am sure well over 80% of them would rather suffer incorrect play than give up that part of the game.

Since it is a game and not a contest, having fun is really the metric.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Yep, the goal posts shifted. Now, instead of missing a lot, your damage is usually inconsequential and it takes many hits to defeat a foe. In the long run, combat takes about the same amount of time really.

FWIW, the average AC is 13 in tier 1, and +2 to AC per tier (so 19 in tier 4) roughly. Given bonuses, this equates to the roughly 65% success rate in combat (+/- 5%). Frankly, I find the "new way" more boring than missing.

My personaly preference is for a success rate around 1/3. I would rather be happily surprised when I hit, not bored that "oh yeah... I hit again... and again... and again" because in practice, with spells, advantage, etc. that 65% is usually closer to 75-85% IME. BORING!!!

Than your DM is doing it wrong!

 

[GMMichael]

Slow and Sap are very difficult to keep track of in large battles, especially when the battle is fluid you have multiple people applying them.

Maybe something like this would help:

	1	2	3	4	5	6
Pc		Slow
Npc				Sap
PC2		Vex	Vex	Vex	Vex	Vex

Thought I'd add vex in there because it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[ezo]

Than your DM is doing it wrong!

You bet!

For a long time, our house rule was all attacks are made with disadvantage, all saves made with advantage, and CON doesn't add to HP.

It was FANTASTIC!!!!

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

You bet!

For a long time, our house rule was all attacks are made with disadvantage, all saves made with advantage, and CON doesn't add to HP.

It was FANTASTIC!!!!

We do it a little different. We let HP work as intended, and the to-hit chance reflects that. However, at +10 is when you get a critical and that is the actual dangerous hit. That takes off of bloodied hit points, which you have much much less of.

And it is still fantastic!