Not Wanting to Kill Characters

[Olaf the Stout]

I use an action pt system where PCs can use up an action pt to turn a killing blow/effect into one that renders them stabilized at -9 hp. I'm very good at challenging the PCs a lot with weaker enemies, and without that rule, in 34 sessions I would have had 16 deaths. That would be an especially big problem for the game for two reasons - resurrection magic is effectively not available and the campaign is heavily based on PC choice, so removing PCs would be a serious problem.

Despite the non-existence of death in the game, combat tends to be a fairly tense affair. Partly it's because the PCs know and have experienced various repercussions of defeat besides death. PCs have been kidnapped, have lost valuable items, have failed to stop NPCs from achieving various problematic ends, etc. Besides that, there's the pure ego angle, since players hate to have their PCs beaten whether they survive or not.

So my experience tells me that it's easy to remove death from the game and still retain tension and serious repercussions for combat and for PC choice.

Good points shilsen. I use action points in my game as per the rules in Unearthed Arcana. On multiple occasions now I have had PC's use them to stabilize themselves once they reached negative HP's. If a PC ever got hit by a blow that might kill them I may let them spend an Action Point (maybe multiple points if the damage put them into big negatives) to stabilize at -9. It seems like a good way to fight with the gloves off but still give them a little safety net underneath them to break their fall.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Emirikol]

Dr. Jay's Neg 9 House Rule

Don't want to kill characters off easily? Institute the Neg 9 massive damage max rule. It reads as follows:

In a single round, enemy attacks can take a PC down to a maximum of -9 and their initiative is automatically moved to last, giving all the other PC’s a chance to save them. Regardless of any feat or ability, at -9 the character is considered “not stabilized and dying.”


I created this rule for two reasons:
1. As the DM, I hate being responsible for PC deaths (I'd rather that if a person dies it's because the PARTY LET THEM DIE)
2. It allows me to break the EL+5 rule (i.e. that I can now throw horrible monsters at them and they actually get a chance to run...or better yet, they all go negative and get captured...)

jh

 

[AdamBomb]

there's a fine line

I'm currently playing in a campaign with 2nd level PC's. Last session, we foolishly split the party. Half of us got ambushed by babarians. Due to some poor tactics on our part, two of us were dropped well into negative HP's while the rest of the party was gone.
Incredibly, the barbarians stabilized us at -9 hitpoints, then took our stuff and left us unconscious.
In my mind, the DM has broken the game. Now I know he won't kill PC's. Doesn't matter what stupid stuff we do, some Deus Ex Machina will prevent us from death. Without fear of death, the game is boring to me.
I tend to go to the other extreme, unfortunately. I had my son and his friend each roll up 2 10th level characters for a one off the other night. 3 of the 4 died in their very first encounter. It was very poor tactics on their part that brought about their demise, as they charged in one at a time to go toe-to-toe with a 4 armed, 30 strength gargoyle, and he ripped them each apart. I could see what was going to happen, but my own sense of "it has to be deadly or it will be boring" kept me from pulling some punches and letting them play a little longer.
There's a middle ground there somewhere, but I'm no good at finding it.

 

[Ourph]

Disclaimer: I don't like the OP's particular take on gaming and GMing, but I respect the fact that HE does. /disclaimer

Maybe you should talk to the players and explain your dilemma. If they would like to keep the game challenging by maintaining the real possibility that their characters might die then your dialogue will at least remind them that it's something that could happen and if they want to continue their characters particular storyline they need to be cautious.

If they would prefer immunity from irrevocable death, maybe you guys could come up with a way to keep the challenge level without permanently losing the character to the campaign (e.g. - level loss rather than death, "save points" where the character can revert back to a previous incarnation of themselves, "fate points" that give the players a get out of death free card, etc.).

Personally, I try to avoid PCs with intricate backstories as an element of the campaign. It may seem cool to have that tie in at first but it severely hampers the game aspect of play eventually. If a significant portion of the campaign centers around a PC's search for his long lost father - then you're basically screwed if that character dies. If, on the other hand, the search is for an ancient hero of the realm who was cursed by amnesia and wandered into the wilderness (i.e. - someone who is important to LOTS of people for lots of different reasons) losing a PC isn't such a problem.

 

[ThirdWizard]

A PC in my games probably dies about once every other session, depending.

That's what Raise Dead is for. So, I've never had a problem with plot lines falling out.

 

[Lanefan]

Years of experience have taught me to never tie a storyline to any one or two particular characters any more than is absolutely necessary, 'cause sure as anything those'll be the first characters to get smoked by some wandering idiot before ever reaching the adventure.

The story is, or should be, able to withstand the loss of everything up to - and maybe including - the whole party. That said, having revival magic available at a cost is certainly worth doing; some players will want their characters back, others will move on to new ones.

Lane-"kill 'em all and let the gods sort 'em out"-fan

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Disclaimer: I don't like the OP's particular take on gaming and GMing, but I respect the fact that HE does. /disclaimer

Maybe you should talk to the players and explain your dilemma. If they would like to keep the game challenging by maintaining the real possibility that their characters might die then your dialogue will at least remind them that it's something that could happen and if they want to continue their characters particular storyline they need to be cautious.

If they would prefer immunity from irrevocable death, maybe you guys could come up with a way to keep the challenge level without permanently losing the character to the campaign (e.g. - level loss rather than death, "save points" where the character can revert back to a previous incarnation of themselves, "fate points" that give the players a get out of death free card, etc.).

Personally, I try to avoid PCs with intricate backstories as an element of the campaign. It may seem cool to have that tie in at first but it severely hampers the game aspect of play eventually. If a significant portion of the campaign centers around a PC's search for his long lost father - then you're basically screwed if that character dies. If, on the other hand, the search is for an ancient hero of the realm who was cursed by amnesia and wandered into the wilderness (i.e. - someone who is important to LOTS of people for lots of different reasons) losing a PC isn't such a problem.

Ourph, while I personally would like to see what happens to the PC's, I don't think that the players would necessarily have a hissy fit and refuse to play any more if their character died. I, and imagine the players, might just be a bit disappointed that we didn't get to see what might have happened to that particular character.

The character's backstories are not central to the plot that it would cause the campaign to come to a crashing halt should they happen to die. They are more side plots that kind of get more developed as the campaign goes along. It is not so much a particular quest but more like how the characters develop and change and deal with certain things as they happen. Also, one player has a particular character concept (an Ice Mage) that I would like to find out how it goes compared to other characters of a similar level.

Having said all of that, no characters have died so far and, even if they did, there would still be the whole resurrection/reincarnation, etc., path that we could go down to bring them back. I still haven't really defined how common ressurection magic is in the campaign as it hasn't come up directly yet. I like the PC's to have access to it for the very reason that they can continue to play the same character if they want to. At the same time it can mess up the verisimilitude of the campaign. Situations like that though just want me to tell verisimilitude to take a hike! This is our story, to hell with what it thinks!

Olaf the Stout

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Years of experience have taught me to never tie a storyline to any one or two particular characters any more than is absolutely necessary, 'cause sure as anything those'll be the first characters to get smoked by some wandering idiot before ever reaching the adventure.

The story is, or should be, able to withstand the loss of everything up to - and maybe including - the whole party. That said, having revival magic available at a cost is certainly worth doing; some players will want their characters back, others will move on to new ones.

Lane-"kill 'em all and let the gods sort 'em out"-fan

Agreed, yet at the same time the more attached to the storyline the characters are the more important the outcome is to the PC's, and therefore probably the PC's. I find that it is a bit of a balancing act to make it important to the PC's, but yet not so important that if they die that particular story can't continue without them. It is a fine line that I am still learning to walk. I do think that I am getting better at it though!

Olaf the Stout

 

[pogre]

I like the J. Tweet rule of going to -(10 +character level) for PC death.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

I like the J. Tweet rule of going to -(10 +character level) for PC death.

I currently have -10 + Constitution Mod for PC death. In addition to this, when characters are between 0 and negative half their character level inclusive they are not unconscious but they are treated as staggered (as per the condition in the DMG). In addition, all BAB, skills, saves are halved until your hit points are increased back above 0.

The second rule hasn't really come into play so far since the characters are only 4th level and the attacks that took them into negatives took them to about -5 or -6. When they are around 10th level it will hopefully give them a chance to gulp down a healing potion before they drop unconscious. I imagine that players will probably just go from low HP's to big negative HP's though thanks to the higher damage done per attack at higher levels.

I am still trying to find a rule to have some sort of area between "I'm fine and fighting at 100%" and "I'm dead/unconscious" without introducing a full scale death spiral mechanic. So far I haven't really found what I'm after.

Olaf the Stout