November's SAGE ADVICE Is Here!

November's Sage Advice column by WotC's Jeremy Crawford is up. This month deals with lightfoot halfing and wood elf hiding racial traits, some class features, backgrounds (you can have only one!), muticlassing, surprise rounds in combat, and more. Check out this month's Sage Advice here. The advice here has been added to the Sage Advice Compendium.

 

[Arial Black]

No, thats hidden. There are rules for a hidden creature launching an attack in th PHB that cover this exact situation (unseen attackers).

Surprise only happens when you are unaware of all enemies and are caught completely unaware. If you notice just one enemy, you are not surprised. The unseen enemies can still attack you with advantage, and (obvioiusly) you cant attak them as you dont know theyre there.

Your PC's in the above example cant be surprised. Theyre already in combat and alert to danger.

Surprise models getting caught with your pants down, not simply being attacked by a creature you cant see or that is hidden from you. They model different things (that often occur simulatenously, but not always).

Exactly!

Initiative models how quickly you react to the change from 'not in combat' to 'in combat', whether you are surprised or not. But if you didn't initiate the combat yourself, then you have to perceive someone else start combat.

Surprise models the effects of being unaware that you are in combat. If you don't realise that you're in combat, your reaction doesn't begin. An analogy is a sprinter hearing the starting pistol. As soon as they hear the pistol (or see another sprinter react), then their reaction can begin. This can be measured as the time elapsed between the sound of the pistol reaching their ears to the time they start to move in response.

But if they don't hear the starting pistol or notice another sprinter react, they don't move because if they move before the gun, they get disqualified.

No matter how fast their reaction speed, if they don't know the race has started, they don't react.

In D&D, many things can be the 'starting pistol' which means combat has started: arrow to the knee, hidden assassin leaps into sight and charges, seeing an crossbow bolt fly towards your eye. But if you don't perceive that arrow (because it missed, was invisible and silent), don't see the assassin leap out of cover (because he stayed in cover and used a crossbow and his Skulker feat), don't see the crossbow bolt (because you are blind/deaf), then you don't know you are in combat and your reaction hasn't begun. If you cannot perceive the bolt, you cannot catch it even if your initiative total would mean you could catch missiles that you can see. Being hit by the arrow lets you know that you're in combat (!), but by then it's too late to catch it.

'Surprise', according to the combat chapter, equals 'not noticing a threat'. Therefore, you stay surprised until you do notice a threat. The speed of your reactions is as futile for the assassin's target as it is for a sprinter who doesn't hear the gun.

 

[Flamestrike]

In D&D, many things can be the 'starting pistol' which means combat has started: arrow to the knee, hidden assassin leaps into sight and charges, seeing an crossbow bolt fly towards your eye.

If youve taken an arrow to the knee, combat has already started, initiative has been rolled, and someone has already taken a turn.

But if you don't perceive that arrow (because it missed, was invisible and silent), don't see the assassin leap out of cover (because he stayed in cover and used a crossbow and his Skulker feat), don't see the crossbow bolt (because you are blind/deaf), then you don't know you are in combat and your reaction hasn't begun.

No, it doesnt matter if he has the skulker feat and hit. You see him in that case.

You need to apply what looks like retrocausality here (but its not). Narrating the events after the mechanical resolution makes this much easier, as does bearing in mind that the mechanical things you model are happening more or less simultaneously despite the stop/start nature of the DnD combat round, and the mechanical formula used to resolve actions in combat.

'Surprise', according to the combat chapter, equals 'not noticing a threat'. Therefore, you stay surprised until you do notice a threat. The speed of your reactions is as futile for the assassin's target as it is for a sprinter who doesn't hear the gun.

Only relevant in outlier cases. An invisible hidden assassin firing an invisible arrow in a cone of silence with the skulker feat who misses could possibly cover such extreme outliers.

You gotta remember combat is simulateous, and there is almost always a chance to notice a sharp pointy thing before it jams into your body. Even in a combat started by an Assassin who is hidden, has the skulker feat and is invisible, if he shoots an arrow from hiding to commence hostilities at an unaware target, its entirely feasable that the target saw the arrow in flight in the nick of time, heard the 'twang' of the bow, or simply had a bad feeling, and accordingly was able to cast his shield spell at the last second.

Common example:

A lone Orc (who is hiding behind a boulder) declares he will charge a Wizard PC (who is 10' away). This initiates combat and initiative is rolled.

If the PC wins initiative (and the Orc loses) it is narrated thus: 'You see an Orc leap from behind a boulder, running at you with axe in hand and screaming a ferocious warcry. You are surprised and cant act on your turn' (this remains the case even though the Orc has yet to have his first turn. Remember, the Orc has already declared and started performing his action (this is what triggered the combat sequence); he is already started moving). On the Orcs turn, it closes the distance and attacks the Wizard (or possibly even changes what it wants to do, which is then narrated accordingly).

This ceases to be as much of an issue if the Orc wins initiative. In that case you narrate it as "You see an Orc leap up from behind a boulder, running at you with axe in hand and screaming a ferocious warcry. Befor you can react, he closes the distance and attacks' (resolves attack)'

 

[Arial Black]

If youve taken an arrow to the knee, combat has already started, initiative has been rolled, and someone has already taken a turn.

Agreed, but if you don't 'notice a threat', then you don't know combat has started so are surprised. Usually, getting hit is enough of a clue!

No, it doesnt matter if he has the skulker feat and hit. You see him in that case.

I wasn't clear enough, in the Skulker case, if the shot missed and the target is blind/deaf, there is no reason that the target knows that he is in combat.

Common example:

A lone Orc (who is hiding behind a boulder) declares he will charge a Wizard PC (who is 10' away). This initiates combat and initiative is rolled.

If the PC wins initiative (and the Orc loses) it is narrated thus: 'You see an Orc leap from behind a boulder, running at you with axe in hand and screaming a ferocious warcry. You are surprised and cant act on your turn' (this remains the case even though the Orc has yet to have his first turn. Remember, the Orc has already declared and started performing his action (this is what triggered the combat sequence); he is already started moving). On the Orcs turn, it closes the distance and attacks the Wizard (or possibly even changes what it wants to do, which is then narrated accordingly).

This ceases to be as much of an issue if the Orc wins initiative. In that case you narrate it as "You see an Orc leap up from behind a boulder, running at you with axe in hand and screaming a ferocious warcry. Befor you can react, he closes the distance and attacks' (resolves attack)'

All well and good.

Next example: the wizard is at home, deeply engrossed in some grimoire. An assassin attempts to sneak up from behind, and shoot an arrow, trying to, y'know, assassinate the wizard.

The Stealth/Perception contest results in a win for the assassin; he remains undetected by the wizard.

As soon as the assassin declares that he is shooting the wizard, initiative is rolled. This models the reaction speed of all the participants. It does not model whether or not the wizard perceives the assassin, the arrow or that combat has begun; he has not noticed a threat, and his reaction speed doesn't come into it.

The wizard rolls a higher initiative. His reaction will be faster than the assassin, but the wizard still hasn't noticed anything to react to.

Before the wizard's initiative, he cannot use reactions.

During his initiative, he cannot move or act because he is surprised.

After his initiative but before the assassin's, the wizard is able to react, but there is nothing to react to.

On the assassin's initiative, he shoots an invisible silenced arrow from hidden, but he misses. The Skulker feat means that he remains hidden, and the invisible, silenced arrow arcs through a window into the night, disturbing nothing.

The wizard is still not aware of a threat. How could he be? For him, nothing has happened because he did not notice the assassin, the arrow OR any threat.

Casting shield is a reaction, and it represents throwing up a shield at the last moment, turning what would have been a hit into a miss instead.

Even though the wizard can use reactions, this does not give him the ability to react to things he doesn't know about. He hasn't noticed the arrow, so he can't put up a shield in response to an un-perceived trigger.

 

[Hriston]

He can't cast Shield because the attack wasn't a hit.

 

[Celtavian]

I think I'm going to start using the advantage to initiative rolls when I feel the PC has taken careful precautions to avoid being seen by the enemy to help assassin characters. That seems like the easiest to implement solution. I can sort of see in a cinematic game like 5E D&D a person that misses their perception check still being able to react to an incoming arrow at the last minute. I can recall many times in books and movies characters reacting to move just far enough out of the way to avoid a fatal blow. That could be construed mechanically to mean they were able to react at the last second to a unseen attack. Advantage on initiative checks seems good way to reward an assassin or player that takes especial precautions to conceal his attack. If you can't win initiative with advantage and a high dex, oh well, them's the breaks.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

No, thats hidden. There are rules for a hidden creature launching an attack in th PHB that cover this exact situation (unseen attackers).

Surprise only happens when you are unaware of all enemies and are caught completely unaware. If you notice just one enemy, you are not surprised. The unseen enemies can still attack you with advantage, and (obvioiusly) you cant attak them as you dont know theyre there.

Your PC's in the above example cant be surprised. Theyre already in combat and alert to danger.

Surprise models getting caught with your pants down, not simply being attacked by a creature you cant see or that is hidden from you. They model different things (that often occur simulatenously, but not always).

by definition of surprise, you are surprised when you don't know something is going to happen, if you are attacked by a hidden attacker, or if an allie turns on you, or if you just have no way of knowing somthinig can happen, you are suprised

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Agreed, but if you don't 'notice a threat', then you don't know combat has started so are surprised. Usually, getting hit is enough of a clue!



I wasn't clear enough, in the Skulker case, if the shot missed and the target is blind/deaf, there is no reason that the target knows that he is in combat.



All well and good.

Next example: the wizard is at home, deeply engrossed in some grimoire. An assassin attempts to sneak up from behind, and shoot an arrow, trying to, y'know, assassinate the wizard.

The Stealth/Perception contest results in a win for the assassin; he remains undetected by the wizard.

As soon as the assassin declares that he is shooting the wizard, initiative is rolled. This models the reaction speed of all the participants. It does not model whether or not the wizard perceives the assassin, the arrow or that combat has begun; he has not noticed a threat, and his reaction speed doesn't come into it.

The wizard rolls a higher initiative. His reaction will be faster than the assassin, but the wizard still hasn't noticed anything to react to.

Before the wizard's initiative, he cannot use reactions.

During his initiative, he cannot move or act because he is surprised.

After his initiative but before the assassin's, the wizard is able to react, but there is nothing to react to.

On the assassin's initiative, he shoots an invisible silenced arrow from hidden, but he misses. The Skulker feat means that he remains hidden, and the invisible, silenced arrow arcs through a window into the night, disturbing nothing.

The wizard is still not aware of a threat. How could he be? For him, nothing has happened because he did not notice the assassin, the arrow OR any threat.

Casting shield is a reaction, and it represents throwing up a shield at the last moment, turning what would have been a hit into a miss instead.

Even though the wizard can use reactions, this does not give him the ability to react to things he doesn't know about. He hasn't noticed the arrow, so he can't put up a shield in response to an un-perceived trigger.

this is all great.

the two examples that have come up in my games are:

An NPC Drow assassin who has fought the PCs many times was hired to kill an elven sage/wizard (PCs were around 9th level, the drow was 13th level, the NPC target was 4th or 5th level) so our PC bard/assassin used the Sage as bait. He stack a bunch of buffs on himself, cast invisibility and walked through the local bazar with the wizard. The drow assassin jumped out and assassinated the wizard, in response the PC Assasinated the drow...

in game terms the Drow declaired an attack, hit, then delat damage. Then the PC went, and hit and dealt damage... both used the class feature assassinate, because both had totally surprised there targets. Initative was never rolled at all...

later, maybe 3 levels later. The PCs had to stop this warlord, and she was pretty awesome. The same PC assassin/bard killed her lover (not hard he was not really much of a threat) and used disguse and magic to become him. He then infiltrated the camp with the plan being to kill said warlord. When they went for a walk alone, the PC delivered the attack (super poison and magic dagger+assasinate) the warlord died never even knowing it wasn't her lover killing her...

 

[Hriston]

As to why I'm not satisfied with the 'until his first turn is over' solution: it doesn't make sense that you notice something hidden just because time has passed, it is not written in the rules that surprise ends just when one of its effects has occurred, and a better solution which doesn't have any drawbacks follows right on from the written rule of what causes surprise, 'not noticing a threat'.

... There have been occasions where my mind has been changed because the case I was answering led me to an understanding that was new to me....

This hasn't happened on the subject of when surprise ends. I don't expect it will. If Crawford himself publishes a Sage Advice article on the subject, then I'll have to go along with it whether or not I think the ruling is a good one.

That's what you said in the Assassinate thread in September.
Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?466314-Assassinate/page60#ixzz3sPyKzisn

Here's what Jeremy Crawford wrote in the Sage Advice article we're discussing:

In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised.

Yet, you are still repeating the same arguments against his ruling you were in September.

'Surprise', according to the combat chapter, equals 'not noticing a threat'. Therefore, you stay surprised until you do notice a threat. The speed of your reactions is as futile for the assassin's target as it is for a sprinter who doesn't hear the gun.

It doesn't seem like you're going along with it. I think where you're making a mistake is in assuming that when a creature is no longer surprised, i.e. past its first turn, that necessarily means it has noticed the formerly unnoticed threat. As you've said, Initiative is not a Perception roll. Crawford's ruling doesn't require that it be regarded as one.

 

[Noctem]

[MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION]

I got an email saying you quoted me? Sorry if you wanted me to respond I can't see your post.

 

[Hriston]

[MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION]

I got an email saying you quoted me? Sorry if you wanted me to respond I can't see your post.

That's odd. I quoted [MENTION=6799649]Arial Black[/MENTION] in the post above yours, but I don't recall quoting you.