November's SAGE ADVICE Is Here!

November's Sage Advice column by WotC's Jeremy Crawford is up. This month deals with lightfoot halfing and wood elf hiding racial traits, some class features, backgrounds (you can have only one!), muticlassing, surprise rounds in combat, and more. Check out this month's Sage Advice here. The advice here has been added to the Sage Advice Compendium.

 

[Ovinomancer]

That's what you said in the Assassinate thread in September.
Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?466314-Assassinate/page60#ixzz3sPyKzisn

Here's what Jeremy Crawford wrote in the Sage Advice article we're discussing:


Yet, you are still repeating the same arguments against his ruling you were in September.



It doesn't seem like you're going along with it. I think where you're making a mistake is in assuming that when a creature is no longer surprised, i.e. past its first turn, that necessarily means it has noticed the formerly unnoticed threat. As you've said, Initiative is not a Perception roll. Crawford's ruling doesn't require that it be regarded as one.

Dude, like, I get your point, but that's some serious levels of petty sniping you did there.

 

[Hriston]

Dude, like, I get your point, but that's some serious levels of petty sniping you did there.

It wasn't meant as an attack on the person. It was against the arguments, all of which I've already addressed.

 

[Noctem]

That's odd. I quoted [MENTION=6799649]Arial Black[/MENTION] in the post above yours, but I don't recall quoting you.

ok good, just making sure

 

[Arial Black]

Here's what Jeremy Crawford wrote in the Sage Advice article we're discussing:


Yet, you are still repeating the same arguments against his ruling you were in September.

At that time in that thread, JC hadn't made a ruling that we were aware of.

Now, I'm arguing that his ruling is bad. It doesn't make sense that the state of 'being vulnerable to auto-crits', which exists 'while surprised', and 'surprised' means 'not noticed a threat' can go away even though you are still not aware that there is a threat.

We all have to abide by his ruling in organised play, but I'll continue to run it sensibly instead in my games.

 

[spectacle]

We all have to abide by his ruling in organised play, but I'll continue to run it sensibly instead in my games.

Is there a rule that following Sage Advice is mandatory for organised play? I haven't managed to find any.

 

[Hriston]

At that time in that thread, JC hadn't made a ruling that we were aware of.

Well now he has. That's the point. It makes no difference to me whether you're satisfied with his ruling or not. I only feel it's curious that then you seemed to be saying you would be, whereas now it seems to make no difference to you.

Now, I'm arguing that his ruling is bad. It doesn't make sense that the state of 'being vulnerable to auto-crits', which exists 'while surprised', and 'surprised' means 'not noticed a threat' can go away even though you are still not aware that there is a threat.

Most of the time a surprised creature becomes aware of a threat as soon as combat is initiated because of the assumption that creatures are aware of their surroundings. Even though they are aware of the attack, they will remain surprised until the end of their first turn. Awareness of a threat does not make you unsurprised. In fact it is the revelation of the previously unknown threat and the unanticipated sudden attack that surprises the creature in the first place. If awareness of a threat negates surprise in your games, I wonder how anyone is ever surprised at all, but we're revisiting old arguments here, aren't we?

Only in an extreme corner case that relies on a hidden character with the Skulker feat shooting invisible and silenced arrows, if such items are even available within the normal rules (I've certainly never encountered them), and what's more missing with the attack roll, rendering moot the question of reacting to the attack, is it even conceivable that the target would remain unaware that it was under attack.

And what then? If we are to believe that the Skulker's concealment is so complete, that its arrows are so utterly undetectable that the target will sit passively, oblivious to all, as attack after attack whizzes by its head until one finally hits, why not give the Skulker an auto-hit in the first round and be done with it? This way, if the target wins initiative it can react to the hit, and if the Skulker wins s/he attacks with surprise in full accordance with the rules.

We all have to abide by his ruling in organised play, but I'll continue to run it sensibly instead in my games.

If that's what you meant by going along with it I misunderstood. I don't do organized play myself so hadn't considered your acceptance of Crawford's ruling would be anything but entirely voluntary.

 

[Flamestrike]

by definition of surprise, you are surprised when you don't know something is going to happen, if you are attacked by a hidden attacker, or if an allie turns on you, or if you just have no way of knowing somthinig can happen, you are suprised

Thats your definition of surprise, not the games definition of surprise.

If an ally just launches an attack at you and you are aware of his presence beforehand, (he's standing in front of you) all that happens is you roll initiative. If he wins, he attacks you before you can act (however you still have enough time to initiate a split second reaction like the parry manouver, or the shield spell). If you win initiative then you beat him to the draw and can attack (or whatever you want to do with your action first). You see him draw his weapon, advance towards you, and attack and have just enough time to run away before he closes the distance, cast a spell or draw your weapon and attack him before his attack is resolved.

Thats the rules.

Its the same deal if a hidden creature starts a combat by declaring an attack. The declaration starts the combat round sequence. The attack is now in motion. Initiative is then rolled. The attack does not get resolved until that hidden persons initiative result comes up in the initiative order. If the opposing side notice just one hostile enemy prior to rolling initiative, they are prepared and ready for combat and not surprised on turn one; meaning they get a chance to act before the hidden creature. If they are surprised then even winning initiative wont help them.

Youre granting a whole free round of actions to the person that screams 'I ATTACK' the loudest and quickest. The conseqence of a free round is that a 'surprising foe' gets up to three full rounds of action before the other side can act if he rolls well on initiative. A 'free' round to shoot a volley at his enemies outside of the combat sequence, his first turn during the combat at his surprised foes, and then his second round of actions. Three full attacks before they can react is a death sentence in 5E.

In the RAW, its 2 max.

I wasn't clear enough, in the Skulker case, if the shot missed and the target is blind/deaf, there is no reason that the target knows that he is in combat.

And in extreme outliers like that (hidden assassin with the skulker feat, shoots arrow and blind and deaf target, and misses) then a DM would be within his rights to rule differently.

I would probably allow a blind and deaf PC a chance (perception check) to still notice the arrow wizz past his nose though. This doesnt reveal the location of the assassin (thanks to Skulker) it just puts the PC on notice that he's being attacked.

Next example: the wizard is at home, deeply engrossed in some grimoire. An assassin attempts to sneak up from behind, and shoot an arrow, trying to, y'know, assassinate the wizard.


The Stealth/Perception contest results in a win for the assassin; he remains undetected by the wizard.


As soon as the assassin declares that he is shooting the wizard, initiative is rolled. This models the reaction speed of all the participants. It does not model whether or not the wizard perceives the assassin, the arrow or that combat has begun; he has not noticed a threat, and his reaction speed doesn't come into it.


The wizard rolls a higher initiative. His reaction will be faster than the assassin, but the wizard still hasn't noticed anything to react to.


Before the wizard's initiative, he cannot use reactions.


During his initiative, he cannot move or act because he is surprised.


After his initiative but before the assassin's, the wizard is able to react, but there is nothing to react to.

YES THERE IS.

The assassin has already declared his action and commenced it (however it has yet to be resolved). This is what has started the combat.

If you're the DM, you narrate this encounter as "You hear the creak of a bow from behind you in the darkness, and see an arrow fly towards you. Roll initiative.'

Not: You see an arrow sticking out of your chest. Roll initiat... oh wait, youre dead.'

On the assassin's initiative, he shoots an invisible silenced arrow from hidden, but he misses. The Skulker feat means that he remains hidden, and the invisible, silenced arrow arcs through a window into the night, disturbing nothing.

See above. How do we know the Wizard noticed nothing? How do we know it flew through a window?

Although like I said above, as an extreme outlier example, I might just inform the Wizards player that he notices nothing and is still unaware combat has commenced.

He might get a bit suss that I've already made him roll initiative of course, but a mature player doesnt metagame (or the next arrow might mysteriously hit automatically).

Casting shield is a reaction, and it represents throwing up a shield at the last moment, turning what would have been a hit into a miss instead.

You cant cast shield against an invisible silenced arrow fired at you from a hidden foe can you? I certainly wouldnt allow it.

Even though the wizard can use reactions, this does not give him the ability to react to things he doesn't know about. He hasn't noticed the arrow, so he can't put up a shield in response to an un-perceived trigger.

Exactly. Thats the rule with reactions generally though (and not the rules for surprise) - reactions require a trigger, and if you dont percieve the trigger, you cant use the reaction. A deflect arrows monk would be in the same troubles against a silent/ invisible arrow from a hidden assassin also.

Incidentaly another advantage of being hidden (or invisible or both) is that most spells cant be cast at you. Its hidden in the text of the individual spells.

 

[Flamestrike]

this is all great.

the two examples that have come up in my games are:

An NPC Drow assassin who has fought the PCs many times was hired to kill an elven sage/wizard (PCs were around 9th level, the drow was 13th level, the NPC target was 4th or 5th level) so our PC bard/assassin used the Sage as bait. He stack a bunch of buffs on himself, cast invisibility and walked through the local bazar with the wizard. The drow assassin jumped out and assassinated the wizard, in response the PC Assasinated the drow...

in game terms the Drow declaired an attack, hit, then delat damage. Then the PC went, and hit and dealt damage... both used the class feature assassinate, because both had totally surprised there targets. Initative was never rolled at all...

Sadly it doesnt work that way, but if that houserule works in your games best of luck to you.

later, maybe 3 levels later. The PCs had to stop this warlord, and she was pretty awesome. The same PC assassin/bard killed her lover (not hard he was not really much of a threat) and used disguse and magic to become him. He then infiltrated the camp with the plan being to kill said warlord. When they went for a walk alone, the PC delivered the attack (super poison and magic dagger+assasinate) the warlord died never even knowing it wasn't her lover killing her...

Thats exactly why your rule sucks. Try this on a PC:

DM: OK mate, you get stabbed in the face with a posion dagger by the person you thought was your girlfriend.
Player: I'll cast shield.
DM: You cant. Youre surprised.
Player: Errr... no man - I cant be suprised. That only happens on the first round of combat, it says so here in the PHB and we havent even rolled initiative yet.
DM: No. You didnt expect the attack
Player: Yeah; thats what surprise is man. According to the PHB surprise only affects you on your first turn of round 1 of the combat. We havent even rolled initiative yet, so this cant be round 1. Its kinda round '0'. Can we roll initiative? I might still be able to cast shield just in the nick of time. It says so right here in the PH...
DM: No. Take 50 points of damage.
Player: Oh... Ok.
DM: Roll initiative.
Player: What? Oh.. OK. Damn a 5.
DM: I got a 15. Its now her first turn - she stabs you in the face again. Take 50 more points of damage.
Player: I cast shield.
DM: You cant. You havent taken your first turn yet. No reactions are allowed becasue you're currently surprised.
Player: Wait what?
DM: Yep. It says so right here in the PHB.
Player; Thats a bit of a sucky ruling. I'm double surprised by someone standing right in front of me?
DM: Yes. Dont worry - its now your first turn.
Player: Whew. OK, I'll cast...
DM: You cant. You're surprised on your first turn of combat so you cant take any actions. This is round 1 remember. You can now take reactions though. Its her turn now, and she stabs you in the face. Again.
Player: Dude. This is freaking ridiculous.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Sadly it doesnt work that way, but if that houserule works in your games best of luck to you.

It isn't a houserule, it's a ruleing based on the book rule. You just don't agree with the ruleing...

a house rule is when you create something or add something or subtract something... this does neaither. Now you can feel free to disagree with the ruleing, but it's just that, an interpretation of the rule, not a house rule

Thats exactly why your rule sucks. Try this on a PC:

no need, in the real world I have run 2 assassin PCs, and a few NPCs, and I have seen Assassins in other games, no one has ever questioned this until online...

DM: OK mate, you get stabbed in the face with a posion dagger by the person you thought was your girlfriend.
Player: I'll cast shield.
DM: You cant. Youre surprised.

so far so good...

Player: Errr... no man - I cant be suprised. That only happens on the first round of combat, it says so here in the PHB and we havent even rolled initiative yet.

Did you know it was going to happen? Would it ever accure to your character it could happen? if the answer to those quastions are no, you are surprised...

DM: No. You didnt expect the attack
Player: Yeah; thats what surprise is man. According to the PHB surprise only affects you on your first turn of round 1 of the combat.

please site that rule...

DM: No. Take 50 points of damage.
Player: Oh... Ok.
DM: Roll initiative.
Player: What? Oh.. OK. Damn a 5.
DM: I got a 15. Its now her first turn - she stabs you in the face again. Take 50 more points of damage.
Player: I cast shield.
DM: You cant. You havent taken your first turn yet. No reactions are allowed becasue you're currently surprised.
Player: Wait what?

I go with the player, at the time of initative no one was surprised... both sides knew the fight was coming after that first stab... so shield away and no assassinate, but advantage/first strike to the assassin...

DM: Yep. It says so right here in the PHB.
Player; Thats a bit of a sucky ruling. I'm double surprised by someone standing right in front of me?
DM: Yes. Dont worry - its now your first turn.
Player: Whew. OK, I'll cast...
DM: You cant. You're surprised on your first turn of combat so you cant take any actions. This is round 1 remember. You can now take reactions though. Its her turn now, and she stabs you in the face. Again.
Player: Dude. This is freaking ridiculous.

well I agree with the player, this DM is being a jerk... lucky for me neither I nor my friends run it that way...

 

[Flamestrike]

It isn't a houserule, it's a ruleing based on the book rule. You just don't agree with the ruleing...

Yes, it is.

The rules for when surprised creatures act is contained clearly in the rulebook. In the combat section.

If you're surprised, you cant act on your first turn of the combat sequence. Thats the rule. It doesnt say your opponent can make 1, 2, or a million free attacks against you, that they automatically win inititiative or anything else of the sort.

Youre the one thats making that up out of thin air, and contrary to the actual rule.

a house rule is when you create something or add something or subtract something... this does neaither.

Yes, it does. Youve created a house rule that grants hidden creatures a whole free round of combat outside of the combat sequence.

Thats clearly creates something. In fact, it creates a 'round 0' that occurs outside of initiative order, and prior to any combat.

no need, in the real world I have run 2 assassin PCs, and a few NPCs, and I have seen Assassins in other games, no one has ever questioned this until online...

Yeah, youre doing it wrong.

But as a player that frequently plays assasins, I can see why you have such a vested intrest in granting assasins a whole free round of combat, an infinite initiative score based on stealth checks, and several repeated opportunities to get an assasinate attempt off before anything can react.

Did you know it was going to happen? Would it ever accure to your character it could happen? if the answer to those quastions are no, you are surprised...

Yes, you do know its going to happen, barring some extreme outliers (as discussed above).

When your girlfriend pulls out a poisoned dagger, right in front of you and attempts to stab you in the face, you clearly get a chance to react before getting shivved in the neck. Youre not forced to stand there like a grinning idiot. In fact if youre Alert (feat), have lightning reflexes (a high Dex) or are just really lucky (roll well) you might even be able to run the heck away, disarm her or punch her in the face before she stabs you.

please site that rule...

Surprise. Combat chapter. PHB.

When someone declares a hostile action, the game switches to the turn by turn combat sequence. Attacks (and movement) happens in initiative order within that sequence (as an abstraction).

A surprised creature (one that is unaware of every single threat around him) cannot take actions on their first turn in combat (although they still roll initiative as normal). If you are aware of even just a single threat, you are not surprised and can take actions normally on your first turn.

I go with the player, at the time of initative no one was surprised... both sides knew the fight was coming after that first stab... so shield away and no assassinate, but advantage/first strike to the assassin...

So you houserule an infinite initiative score on turn 1 for any creature that screams I ATTACK! and are hidden/ disguised.

If its not a house rule, can you point me to that rule please?