November's SAGE ADVICE Is Here!

November's Sage Advice column by WotC's Jeremy Crawford is up. This month deals with lightfoot halfing and wood elf hiding racial traits, some class features, backgrounds (you can have only one!), muticlassing, surprise rounds in combat, and more. Check out this month's Sage Advice here. The advice here has been added to the Sage Advice Compendium.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Yes, it is.

The rules for when surprised creatures act is contained clearly in the rulebook. In the combat section.

If you're surprised, you cant act on your first turn of the combat sequence. Thats the rule. It doesnt say your opponent can make 1, 2, or a million free attacks against you, that they automatically win inititiative or anything else of the sort.

Youre the one thats making that up out of thin air, and contrary to the actual rule.



Yes, it does. Youve created a house rule that grants hidden creatures a whole free round of combat outside of the combat sequence.

Thats clearly creates something. In fact, it creates a 'round 0' that occurs outside of initiative order, and prior to any combat.



Yeah, youre doing it wrong.

But as a player that frequently plays assasins, I can see why you have such a vested intrest in granting assasins a whole free round of combat, an infinite initiative score based on stealth checks, and several repeated opportunities to get an assasinate attempt off before anything can react.



Yes, you do know its going to happen, barring some extreme outliers (as discussed above).

When your girlfriend pulls out a poisoned dagger, right in front of you and attempts to stab you in the face, you clearly get a chance to react before getting shivved in the neck. Youre not forced to stand there like a grinning idiot. In fact if youre Alert (feat), have lightning reflexes (a high Dex) or are just really lucky (roll well) you might even be able to run the heck away, disarm her or punch her in the face before she stabs you.



Surprise. Combat chapter. PHB.

When someone declares a hostile action, the game switches to the turn by turn combat sequence. Attacks (and movement) happens in initiative order within that sequence (as an abstraction).

A surprised creature (one that is unaware of every single threat around him) cannot take actions on their first turn in combat (although they still roll initiative as normal). If you are aware of even just a single threat, you are not surprised and can take actions normally on your first turn.



So you houserule an infinite initiative score on turn 1 for any creature that screams I ATTACK! and are hidden/ disguised.

If its not a house rule, can you point me to that rule please?

Pretty sure that the game says to roll initiative when the DM says to roll initiative. Also pretty sure that there's sufficient slop in the surprise rules (like it not saying when surprise actually ends) that you can make a ruling that's consistent in a couple of different ways. That's not to say that you don't have a perfectly valid interpretation -- you do -- just that other interpretations can exist. Even those that don't agree with Crawford (blasphemy, I know, but it's a tolerate regime).

 

[Flamestrike]

Pretty sure that the game says to roll initiative when the DM says to roll initiative. Also pretty sure that there's sufficient slop in the surprise rules (like it not saying when surprise actually ends) that you can make a ruling that's consistent in a couple of different ways. That's not to say that you don't have a perfectly valid interpretation -- you do -- just that other interpretations can exist. Even those that don't agree with Crawford (blasphemy, I know, but it's a tolerate regime).

The relevant rules are (from the Players Basic):

Surprise
A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp,
springing from the trees to attack them. A gelatinous
cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by
the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In
these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise
over the other.

The DM determines who might be surprised. If
neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice
each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity
(Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive
Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the
opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t
notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action
on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a
reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can
be surprised even if the other members aren’t.

Initiative
Initiative determines the order of turns during combat.
When combat starts, every participant makes a
Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative
order. The DM makes one roll for an entire group of
identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at
the same time.


Combat starts. Every one makes a dexterity check. Anyone who failed to notice a single threat at the time initiative is rolled is surprised (cannot take an action) when their initiative result comes up on turn 1.

Thats how it works. No free actions or free turns for people who attain surprise. Surprised creatrues simply miss turn 1 (but might still be able to take reactions if they are fast enough as reflected by the Dex check for initiative)

 

[SkidAce]

Yes, you do know its going to happen, barring some extreme outliers (as discussed above).

When your girlfriend pulls out a poisoned dagger, right in front of you and attempts to stab you in the face, you clearly get a chance to react before getting shivved in the neck. Youre not forced to stand there like a grinning idiot. In fact if youre Alert (feat), have lightning reflexes (a high Dex) or are just really lucky (roll well) you might even be able to run the heck away, disarm her or punch her in the face before she stabs you.

This is actually a decent example.

And for the invisible silenced girlfriend (a unique situation) the DM can rule as needed.

 

[Arial Black]

The assassin has already declared his action and commenced it (however it has yet to be resolved). This is what has started the combat.

If you're the DM, you narrate this encounter as "You hear the creak of a bow from behind you in the darkness, and see an arrow fly towards you. Roll initiative.'

And here's the logical disconnect. I have no objection to rolling to see if the target hears the creak of my bow; that's perfectly fair. I'm trying to be quiet, so I roll Stealth. He might hear something, so he rolls Perception. If he wins he heard the creak and is not surprised. If I win he didn't and he is.

What he can't do is roll a Dexterity check to ascertain if he heard me!

 

[Flamestrike]

And here's the logical disconnect. I have no objection to rolling to see if the target hears the creak of my bow; that's perfectly fair. I'm trying to be quiet, so I roll Stealth. He might hear something, so he rolls Perception. If he wins he heard the creak and is not surprised. If I win he didn't and he is.

What he can't do is roll a Dexterity check to ascertain if he heard me!

Youre still hidden. You get all the advantages of being hidden. The abstraction of the combat round sequence is what is tripping you up.

There are very few sitations that cant be narratted away.

 

[Ovinomancer]

The relevant rules are (from the Players Basic):

Surprise
A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp,
springing from the trees to attack them. A gelatinous
cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by
the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In
these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise
over the other.

The DM determines who might be surprised. If
neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice
each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity
(Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive
Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the
opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t
notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action
on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a
reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can
be surprised even if the other members aren’t.

Initiative
Initiative determines the order of turns during combat.
When combat starts, every participant makes a
Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative
order. The DM makes one roll for an entire group of
identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at
the same time.


Combat starts. Every one makes a dexterity check. Anyone who failed to notice a single threat at the time initiative is rolled is surprised (cannot take an action) when their initiative result comes up on turn 1.

Thats how it works. No free actions or free turns for people who attain surprise. Surprised creatrues simply miss turn 1 (but might still be able to take reactions if they are fast enough as reflected by the Dex check for initiative)

Yup, as I said, you have a perfectly valid interpretation. But nothing in your quoted blocks says when surprise actually ends (just what effects it has), nor that you can't make an attack outside of combat. Seems like a DM could make rulings in that space that both agree with your quoted blocks and disagree with your interpretation. That's the entire sum of what I'm saying -- you don't actually have 100% definite rules here to fall back on; you're making as much of a ruling call as the people you're telling that their wrong.

 

[Flamestrike]

Nothing in your quoted blocks says that you can't make an attack outside of combat.

Attacks are resolved inside of the combat sequence. In initiative order. It says so right in the combat chapter.

• Combat starts [hostilities are declared]
• Iniative is rolled.
• In turn order, combatants act. [unaware combatants dont act on on turn 1]

If youre not rolling initiative, determining who is surprised, and then resolving actions in initiative order, you're skipping a few steps before resolving a hostile attack from one creature against another. The resolution of attacks is clearly spelled out in the rules to come after initiative and surprise is determined; and not before.

Its like if there is a method for resolving a workplace dispute in a chapter called 'resolving disputes' in your works employment manual that states the process for resolving a dispute is:

• Lodge appeal
• Your appeal then comes before a tribunal
• The tribunal accept evidence in written form, first from the apellant and then from the respondent

You cant submit evidence to the tribunal before the appeal is lodged. The lodging of the appeal starts the dispute resolution process off.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Attacks are resolved inside of the combat sequence. In initiative order. It says so right in the combat chapter.

• Combat starts [hostilities are declared]
• Iniative is rolled.
• In turn order, combatants act. [unaware combatants dont act on on turn 1]

If youre not rolling initiative, determining who is surprised, and then resolving actions in initiative order, you're skipping a few steps before resolving a hostile attack from one creature against another. The resolution of attacks is clearly spelled out in the rules to come after initiative and surprise is determined; and not before.

Its like if there is a method for resolving a workplace dispute in a chapter called 'resolving disputes' in your works employment manual that states the process for resolving a dispute is:

• Lodge appeal
• Your appeal then comes before a tribunal
• The tribunal accept evidence in written form, first from the apellant and then from the respondent

You cant submit evidence to the tribunal before the appeal is lodged. The lodging of the appeal starts the dispute resolution process off.

That's a perfectly valid interpretation. The bit about workplace disputes is nice, but utterly irrelevant. I could invent an example of a different interpretation and you'd (rightly) dismiss it as irrelevant, so let's not do that.

All I'm saying is that no where in the rules does it say you can't have an attack outside of initiative. Therefore, if DM wants, he can do it. For what it's worth, it would be the very odd exception for there to be an attack outside of initiative in my game, but I can see how another DM could do it differently and that there's no rule reason why they couldn't. I get that you really, really want to be right, here, but you should step back and acknowledge that there's enough slop that someone might just be able to do it differently.

 

[Arial Black]

All I'm saying is that no where in the rules does it say you can't have an attack outside of initiative.

Actually....

The rules are under no obligation to tell you what they are not, only to tell you what they are.

The rules say that '...combat takes place in combat rounds...'.

Therefore, an attack on an opponent must take place in a 'combat round', and, in combat rounds, attacks and other actions take place within the initiative order.

The only way out of this is to define your 'dagger thrust to your enemy's throat' as somehow 'not combat'...!

Good luck with that.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Actually....

The rules are under no obligation to tell you what they are not, only to tell you what they are.

The rules say that '...combat takes place in combat rounds...'.

Therefore, an attack on an opponent must take place in a 'combat round', and, in combat rounds, attacks and other actions take place within the initiative order.

The only way out of this is to define your 'dagger thrust to your enemy's throat' as somehow 'not combat'...!

Good luck with that.

Trivially easy. English is an imprecise language. The definition of combat does not encompass all hostile acts. For instance, if someone is assassinated from a distant rooftop with a long range rifle, no one is said to have been in 'combat.' There's plenty of room for an attack to exist outside of 'combat'.

And, again, I agree with the interpretation that attacks should take place inside initiative. I do so, though, not because I believe that the rules dictate it so, but because the game works better for me if attacks occur within initiative. That's not to say that I wouldn't allow such an attack outside of initiative given a specific and uncommon situation.