Now Armor=DR not AC bonus! READ THIS!!!

[Valorian]

Actually the rapier, and the stileto (low damage weapons in 3e) were initially designed to defeat plate armor.

"The rapier developed in the fifteenth century, due to a variety of factors. The widespread use of plate armor led to the development of a longer and thinner sword intended to thrust though the chinks in that armor, rather than cutting or crushing through the armor itself."

Also heavy draw long bows and crossbows were feared, by heavy armor wearing types, because of their ability to "punch" through armor...but if a person in full plate and shield had DR 10/-, they'd have nothing to fear from crossbows, and little to fear from might low bows (max 1d8+4), except from criticals...this would bother me worse than the way the sytem works now.

Of course it's more realistic. I mean, what do you think's going to happen if you poke a metal breastplate with a rapier? Or hit someone in a full plate with your fist? Nothing! (except maybe hurting your hand alot). But where's the fun in that?

UofMDude

 

[Ds Da Man]

While I would never apply DR to regular D&D, I will be using it in my homebrew Starcraft campaign. I won't be using magic, so I don't need to worry about spells, but I will be using psionics. Many of my weapons will have rapid fire/auto fire capabilities, so although many shots would be blocked, there are more chances for hits, and criticals.

 

[Forlorn]

Actually the rapier, and the stileto (low damage weapons in 3e) were initially designed to defeat plate armor.

"The rapier developed in the fifteenth century, due to a variety of factors. The widespread use of plate armor led to the development of a longer and thinner sword intended to thrust though the chinks in that armor, rather than cutting or crushing through the armor itself."

Valorian, what is your source for the above quote? I am a history buff and the Renaissance is my time period of choice. From all my research, and I have a pile of books sitting here I can quote to you if you'd like, the above statement is blatantly wrong. For on the rapier developed during the sixteenth century, not the fifteenth. Furthermore the use of a rapier to "thrust through the chinks in that armor" is not valid. The rapier was a thrusting weapon which developed from the cut and thrust sword. It was used primarily in unarmored civilian combat and saw very limited use on the battlefields. The cut and thrust sword, which is similar to a rapier, having a wider cross section allowing for more varied us of the cut saw battlefield use, but mostly in the late 1540's and beyond when heavy armor is going out of style due to the cost, and its ineffectiveness versus the pike and arquebus.

As to a stilleto, yes you can punch through heavy armor with one but you would want to save this as a last resort since you need to be quite close to accomplish this. The best defense against a person in full plate would be a war hammer or lucern hammer. These weapons, which are essentially nothing more then a small hammer head on a longer then average pole, where for lack of a better term, can openers. They were specifically designed to focus all the power generated from a swing onto a very small point, thereby generating tremendous force and punching through the armor.

Sorry, weapon history lesson over now.

 

[Thorvald Kviksverd]

Forlorn--

I concur. I don't want to put words in Valorian's mouth, but I think he might be thinking of the tuck/estoc and the rondel--or something similar--weapons of an earlier age (though I think many would argue that the rapier was the direct descendant of the tuck/estoc.

 

[Valorian]

Quite correct, the weapons I am refering to were actually called the estoc/tuck (perhaps I over simplified matters...the section I quoted from an SCA source, went on to call them ancestors of the rapier), but if I had to do a 3e similarity chart for most likely weapon to represent them in the game, I'd make them rapiers.

I wasn't necessarily trying to give a history lesson on sword, but instead to illustrate that just making armor DR instead of AC, would require more than just a simple change. Unless you assume that one normally cannot get past heavy armor unless one "crits" at which point the weapons with high crit ranges (like the rapier make some sense), but then you have to explain why the scimitar works well against heavy armor

Some web sites with pertinent information for later perusal:
The ancestor of the rapier:
http://www.cbc2.org/faculty/dabbott/duMarozzo.htm
Cool sight about Midievil Martial Arts:
http://www.aemma.org/knowledgeBase_H.htm

Oh and Forlorn, your quite correct that the heavy piercing weapons, warhammers, lucern hammers, picks, are the best bet against heavy armor...unless substancial changes were made in the system as it stands, they would be at best no better than weapons that wouuld actually be horrible against heavy armor.

The problem is this is a fantasy game! I don't really want to have all the PC have to carry a pick or warhammer because its a better representation of the reality of fighting against an armored opponent, when the they really want to carry a sword for roleplaying reasons

Forlorn--

I concur. I don't want to put words in Valorian's mouth, but I think he might be thinking of the tuck/estoc and the rondel--or something similar--weapons of an earlier age (though I think many would argue that the rapier was the direct descendant of the tuck/estoc.