D&D 5E (2024) NPCs, and the poverty of the core books

[Micah Sweet]

By looking at and comparing the actual numbers in the statblock, along with the various extra abilities.

If I'm running an NPC as a foe for the party I want and need to know what it can do, what it can't do, and what its numbers are; and the more detail I have on such things, the better.

What's it's class and level? Just knowing those tells me a lot about what it has going for it.

What languages does it speak? Is it likely to understand the party's shouted communications with each other during the fight? Never mind it's hard to monologue effectively if nobody in the party can understand me.

What spells does it have prepared? Also, what other spells does it have in its book? Inquiring minds are going to want to know.

And so on.

Yup. I was able to figure this stuff out in TSR's day just fine.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

A satisfying encounter. PCs are built with three conceits in mind:
* They can do tremendous nova damage if they use all their power at once.
" They don't have as many hp as monsters and have to rely on healing and AC to even the odds
* They are built for multiple encounters with rests in between and noncombat encounters and abilities.

As such, they tend to either be glass cannons (enough power to destroy a group via Nova, but equally susceptible to being nova'd) or slap-tanks (investing in high defense to live, but at the cost of low damage that never threatens the PCs). The former is rocket tag, the latter is The Slog. Monsters and NPCs are built for a single encounter, so they have more HP it resist nova (though with lower AC, with creates the hp sponge issue) but enough damage to threatens PCs without high nova potential. A middle ground that make fights longer but not too long.

As always, this is averages and ymnv.

Oh, so either PCS have too low defence and too high offence, or the exact opposite! This seems like obvious bollocks to me. If they can be those things, they can be things between them as well.

Too squishy or wimpy for fun use.

I already explained it.

PCs on the monster side punch way WAY higher than their defense. They aren't fun to use because they are not even glass cannons, they are paper cannons.

PCs deal a bunch of damage then instantly die

NPCs modeled after PCs are more like one shot traps like bear traps and falling rocks than monsters you fight. Because they either kill you then die or just die

But actual PCs do not instantly die! They are in fact pretty much impossible to kill, so what you say certainly cannot be true.

 

[Minigiant]

Perhaps the NPCs should play smarter. Like show up in, say, a party.

You think more PCs would solve the the problem of

Yup. I was able to figure this stuff out in TSR's day just fine.

TSR PCs were a lot weaker offensively compared to their defense at lower levels. Then their offense to defense cranks up hard mid to high levels.

But since humaniods at or past mid were rare, you could throw low level PCs at enemies and not worry about TPK.

But actual PCs do not instantly die! They are in fact pretty much impossible to kill, so what you say certainly cannot be true.

PCs don't instantly die to.. NPCs.

But if you design the NPCs like PCs, they are PCs now.


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Seriously I could only imagine how unfun actually fighting a Gloomstalker/Assassin or Hexladin would be.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

PCs don't instantly die to.. NPCs.

But if you design the NPCs like PCs, they are PCs now.


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Seriously I could only imagine how unfun actually fighting a Gloomstalker/Assassin or Hexladin would be.

Perhaps it would be actually challenging and interesting compared to punching boring HP sacks that cannot harm you.

 

[Lanefan]

Which is step 2, but is missing step 1 - easy and simple at a glance.

CR is easy and simple (if still not always accurate) if you just happen to be running a party of the size and capabilities the designers expect. If you're not, e.g. you've got a party of 7 plus a retainer or two instead of the expected 4, you're way better off going by the actual numbers plus your existing experience of what the group (or similar) can handle.

I stat out details now and then for important NPCs or more likely swap thing around like what spells they have prepped or add some other details. But most NPCs? Most NPCs only have 15 minutes of fame if that and I'm lazy. If they're a recurring NPC I'll just give them things I think are appropriate based on NPCs or character abilities of a similar level.

I'm lazy too, but when I pay for a module I don't expect its authors to have been such.

 

[Lanefan]

It might look that way. But PCs are too skewed.

Basically, if a PC can survive the targeted offence of a party of four, it's offense is so high it's gonna TPK them.

Basically you'd have to blatantly and obviously pull punches to run a PC against a PC party who'd have enough defenses to last over a round. Which defeats the purpose of having NPCs using PC rules because you'd have to ignore their class features to have any fun*.

In 5e, maybe. In 1e-likes I've done party-vs-party numerous times and at different levels; it rarely turns into either side focus-firing as things get too spread out and chaotic too fast. The exception is if-when one group gets surprise on the other; those tend to end real fast, with the surprised side's only viable options being to run for their lives or surrender.

*Unless rocket tag is your desired type of fun

True rocket-tag isn't fun but - if I had to - I'd still take it over a long slog through hundreds of hit points where the law of averages points to what the end result will be long before we get there.

The worst thing a combat can be or become is predictable.

 

[Lanefan]

Seriously I could only imagine how unfun actually fighting a Gloomstalker/Assassin or Hexladin would be.

If that's truly the case then perhaps the game has designed PCs to be too powerful relative to their surroundings - and also relative to themselves.

Interesting exercise next time someone can't make a session: have the other players take their characters and (completely outside whatever campaign you're running - this is just for kicks) have 'em throw down against each other in an arena-style setup. See how long the combats last. Maybe it'll give you some insight as to how to fix their glass-cannon-ness without just adding more hit points...or maybe they'll be more resilient than you expect.

 

[LordBP]

If that's truly the case then perhaps the game has designed PCs to be too powerful relative to their surroundings - and also relative to themselves.

Interesting exercise next time someone can't make a session: have the other players take their characters and (completely outside whatever campaign you're running - this is just for kicks) have 'em throw down against each other in an arena-style setup. See how long the combats last. Maybe it'll give you some insight as to how to fix their glass-cannon-ness without just adding more hit points...or maybe they'll be more resilient than you expect.

Could just have them face their own clones in a battle (idea isn't mine, was in a book I read years ago).

 

[AlViking]

CR is easy and simple (if still not always accurate) if you just happen to be running a party of the size and capabilities the designers expect. If you're not, e.g. you've got a party of 7 plus a retainer or two instead of the expected 4, you're way better off going by the actual numbers plus your existing experience of what the group (or similar) can handle.

I use it for a general quick breakdown when thinking about what to use. Although I do occasionally pull up a monster and go "Huh, I didn't know it could do that" while running the game. In any case it didn't used to be as big a deal back when I first started DMing because there were fewer monsters and the rate of power increase was less. That and because we never used GP for XP it took forever to level.

I'm lazy too, but when I pay for a module I don't expect its authors to have been such.

I don't use modules but I really wish they would include adjustment guidelines because they always seem to target a group of 4 casual newbs and my groups vary from 6 players with at least a couple of competent players to a clown car of full of people who can't seem to remember how their characters work even though I just told them 15 minutes ago.

 

[Remathilis]

Perhaps it would be actually challenging and interesting compared to punching boring HP sacks that cannot harm you.

You get the opposite effect: rocket tag where the fight is settled by the initiative die because the antagonist has enough damage to drop a PC in one round, but they themselves are dropped in one. The flight becomes win initiative and nova.

If you want every fight to be a samurai iaijutsu duel or a Wild West shootout at high noon, then be my guest.